Saturday, April 14, 2007

Amma's "Sex Scandal"

File under: Amma All-Over-The-Planet and Gurubusting

We really don't have any idea who Shemp McGurk is, but we do know who forwarded McGurk's interesting interpretation of the stadium satsang scene shown at the end of Darshan: The Embrace, the recent documentary about Ammachi. We thought some of you might enjoy it. We know many of you are going to hate it:
No, Amma wasn't caught in flagrante delicto. But she did participate in what I can only describe as a "scandal" and one best employed with the adjective "sexy". But unlike this forum's allegations about MMY's extra-curriculars which are of the he-said-she-said category of rumors, Amma's scandal was filmed for the whole world to see.

I am referring to the DVD "Darshan" which I saw last week for the first time. There was something in it that just didn't sit right with me. "Darshan" is a documentary that follows Amma the Hugging Saint around various parts of India, including her Ashram, over a few months time...it was made by a French film crew a few years ago.

At one point near the end of the DVD, Amma is in a stadium of about 25,000 people who all came for that delicious hug she gives and which is her signature trademark (well, she IS called the hugging saint for a reason). And her people made a point of emphasizing that she only had a certain amount of time to be there.

So what did Amma and her organization do? Why, they actually put up a SCORE CARD of how many people she hugged! There was an actual TOTE BOARD, just like in those PBS fund-raisers they Michael Flatley and Lord of the Dance or Joseph Campbell are showcased in order to get the largest possible response during pledge week...or that thermometer the United Appeal puts on the town square that fills up with red as each new plateau of funds raised is met.

Except this tote board didn't list money; the currency measured was HUGS! And Amma wanted to get in as many as she could. She and her crew seemed intent upon trying to beat some record (exactly whose record and what goal I'm not sure but seeing as she's the only hugging saint around, I guess she was out to beat her own record...what sports psychologists tell enthusiasts in non-team sports like golf call "competing with yourself").

And the whole record-breaking vibe was pumped up to the max because Amma wasn't doing her usual embrace (the preceding one hour of the DVD had documented normal-speed hugging). No, along with her court- side minions, TEAM AMMA shifted into mass-production gear. Unlike the earlier recorded sessions, Amma the Pro performed a well- rehearsed and well-choreographed lift and jerk for each poor soul that trotted up to the dais. Amma and her accountants had precisioned the math and knew exactly how many complete cycles of body-embrace-eject-next had to be performed in the time allotted. Her followers had obviously paid attention in high school math class `cause they had the formula down pat:

I'm sure the pre-game prep notes looked something like this:

T/H = WR

T = Time Amma is in the stadium; H= Number of hugs; WR = World Record).

Man, she was huggin' em out at the rate of about 15 per minute. Now, that's some massed-produced touchy-feely darshan working there, worthy of respect from the most jaded MacDonald's production line engineer. Ray Kroc's McSlide Ruler holds nothing on Team Amma which can now proudly hang an "X billions hugged" sign under the Ashram`s arches.

Why have I called this a "scandal"? Why employ the adjective "sex" to describe it?

Bad enough that Team Amma and its star forward Amma appeared interested in only performing for the camera and unabashedly abandoned even the faintest APPEARANCE of devotion or piety. The worst part was what was so clearly their REAL motivation: cranking out the hugs in order to get into some sort of Spiritual Guinness Book of World Records. Talk about an experience devoid of spirituality...all that the principles seemed interested in was getting as high a number on the scoreboard as possible...generating love or compassion be damned, let`s just churn out what, at minimum, can be defined as a hug and get on to the next warm body. Head `em up, move `em out Rawhide!

In a nutshell: the numbers on the tote board was virtually all that she and her Kool-Aid inner circle were interested in. And that's why it seemed so scandalous to me.

And when they got the number they wanted (something like 25,000 but I can't recall the exact tally) Team Amma whooped and clapped like the cheerleaders in American Beauty. This sporty mood generated another impression upon me: Kobe Bryant scoring a three-pointer from center court to beat the Knicks with 2 seconds left on the clock.

But there was one final image this carnage of spiritual gluttony cast upon me. And this last one also depicted a pro-basketballer: Wilt Chamberlain whose ultimate claim-to-fame in popular culture wasn't the numerous NBA records he broke but his bold and brass assertion that he had slept with 20,000 women during his lifetime.

And that's why Amma's "scandal" seems so SEXY.
Comparing Amma to the Black Mamba (Kobe) and the Big Dipper (Wilt). You just gotta' love that!

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80 Comments:

At 4/15/2007 12:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is absolutely absurd.

This woman crucifies herself on a chair daily.

Obviously, the entire point has been missed.

Sad.

 
At 4/15/2007 1:29 AM, Blogger semblance s and orchestra said...

T/H = WR

T = Time Amma is in the stadium; H= Number of hugs; WR = World Record).


~~~ Number game. Call it a missionary drive. The vatican plays with numbers more than transforming lives of the poor in the third world. Numbers had been and still is, the obsession of the church, but now has caught up with the ammachis and sri sris too. It could be a sad plight, that they are forced to outdo their own prior 'performances' just to convince themselves that everything is fine about their 'Mission Implorable'.

It was a total turn off when i had to sign a enrolment form some 10 years ago, which stated that i assure the organizers of 5 more participants for the next darshan by ammachi.

They would NOT want to miss even a deadhead like me being in a satsang. They would always check with me if im coming and always make sure to grumble when i did not turn up(because i was busy with me pot). Personally i liked satsangs because i could sleep quietly under the guise of meditation. If i was awake, i still had those many chicks who could 'jelwell' with me in the hall. I was told that its not because im a rich(?)and spoilt kid they wanted me there, but i have a great potential to become a spiritual leader in the next millenium. Now the next millenium has come and will be gone sooner.

Chuckji.. can you lift your head and your nose from my F chuckra to the Crown chakra and see any crown their actually?? Or atleast some ultra violet rays peeping out from other holes?

 
At 4/15/2007 8:11 AM, Blogger jody said...

Obviously, the entire point has been missed.

Yes, you (and Amma and all her people) have missed the entire point.

It's quite sad.

 
At 4/15/2007 10:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you see Ammachi in a city in India, the crowds are so much larger than in the USA, that you don't even kneel and get "into her lap". You walk by, she is in an elevated chair, you lean forward (kind of pushed by her crew), she briefly (very briefly) hugs you while saying some mantra or endearment, and then the crew pushes you away as she puts a little candy into your hand. I have to say it sounds terrible, but my own experience was an unexpected one of intense bliss and joy that lasted for many days. Pain that I'd been experiencing was gone, and I generally felt an acceptance of the human race that I previously had not felt (a plus when there are a billion people around you). I have no idea if everyone pulled and pushed around had the same feeling that I did, but I'm not anyone special, so I expect they did.

I think Ammachi is great, and that her sacrifice is great. As for her followers, they are like any other cult -- trying to imitate the master, when imitation of this type of state is simply impossible. Forgive them if you can, correct them if you can, but Ammachi is truly lovely imo.

 
At 4/15/2007 4:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It was a total turn off when i had to sign a enrolment form some 10 years ago, which stated that i assure the organizers of 5 more participants for the next darshan by ammachi.

I have never heard of anyone being required to sign any "enrollment form" or guarantee bringing any number of people for Amma's darshan. I've been pretty deeply involved with the satsang (including tour coordination) for many years and, although I myself have some issues with the organization and the 'scene,' this doesn't ring true.

 
At 4/15/2007 4:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think there's anything particularly "scandalous" or "sexy" about it. While I do find the PR emphasis that's developed around Amma in recent years to be a huge turn-off, I also don't doubt that her spirituality/compassion are real. Whoever thinks that Amma is only doing what she's doing to get into some Spiritual Book of World Records really doesn't know her at all.

And...there are no "accountants" figuring out the math. There is no one timing the hugs. It seems like this person is trying to whip up some great conspiracy theory where there really isn't one...even if the recent PR emphasis is annoying.

 
At 4/15/2007 4:35 PM, Blogger jody said...

I think Ammachi is great, and that her sacrifice is great.

I agree that she is a very hard worker and appears to have others' welfare close to her heart.

But that has nothing to do with nondual truth or the idea that she's some kind of living goddess.

That's what I reject, the idea that she's a living goddess and that her hugging compulsion arises from there. She's just a nice lady trying to help. She does in many ways, for which she deserves some kudos. I tell people if you want a space-mommy instead of a guru, go see Ammachi.

But as far as an expression of the nondual truth, her whole shtick is defunct.

 
At 4/15/2007 4:58 PM, Blogger semblance s and orchestra said...

ANON said>>>>>I have never heard of anyone being required to sign any "enrollment form" or guarantee bringing any number of people for Amma's darshan.


~~~~ Yes anon. This happend in 1996(roughly) when they opened a center in powai,Mumbai(bombay). This is mainly for the people in the neighborhood. Upon visiting the center(it was in an apartment)
The ashram at new bombay(nerul) was becoming popular too.

The idea need not be ammachi's inspiration but a brain child of some devotee/organizer.
They told me that "amma can make anything possible, especially people like you will benefit a lot"
I take that in the right spirit even today. But when went through the form i filled up for a yellow or green card as a member, there was a column which mentioned something like this..

"I hereby wish to bring 5 more people to the ensuing ammachi's visit"
sg.

This particularly appeared funny to me. Perhaps they knocked it off later. But certainly it existed for sometime...

 
At 4/15/2007 7:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought it was going to be about a real sex scandal.

That was just boring, and most likely not true.

*walks away disappointed*

 
At 4/15/2007 8:49 PM, Blogger Stuart said...

"I have no idea if everyone pulled and pushed around had the same feeling that I did, but I'm not anyone special, so I expect they did."

There's a wide spectrum when it comes to entering trances or hypnotic states. People who can be easily hypnotised aren't less intelligent than average, but they do have the most powerful imaginations.

In Amma's appearances, the whole spectalce and group dynamics induces a level of belief or expectation in which some people will easily get special experiences. The experience that such people get doesn't apply to everyone, since we're all at different points on that spectrum.

If Amma has some magical invisible powers such that her hugs have a power to give special experiences, then we'd expect a higher level of them. But there's no need to speculate about magical powers: what we know about belief and suggestion adequately explains the minority of people who do get special experiences from the hugs.

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm

 
At 4/15/2007 10:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with anonymous's opinions on this pretty completely. Like him/her, I have been involved with Amma's stuff for a long time. I won't make a generalization that 'she is special', but merely say that she is special for ME, the most important person in the universe.
And if last remark shows that I have a huge ego, so be it.

 
At 4/15/2007 11:02 PM, Blogger jody said...

she is special for ME, the most important person in the universe.

What that statement says to me is that you don't want a guru, you want a space-mommy.

 
At 4/15/2007 11:15 PM, Anonymous wannabe said...

I tell people if you want a space-mommy instead of a guru, go see Ammachi.

I guess you are entitled to say what you want, Jody, but because she did not enlighten you does not mean that Amma won't work as a guru for your listener. I would prefer to be just her child, but she has wrought her guru-ness on me.

 
At 4/15/2007 11:23 PM, Blogger jody said...

because she did not enlighten you does not mean that Amma won't work as a guru for your listener.

Agreed. Even bad gurus (which I don't consider Amma to be) can work extremely well for sincere devotees.

However, as an example of self-realization, Amma leaves much to be desired. Seeing her as a deity may help the spiritually immature feel better about themselves, but it does nothing for their own self-realization. In fact, it could even be prevented by the nonsense people project on to Amma by their belief in her magic powers, thought to be the result of her enlightement.

In other words, Amma isn't magic, her devotees are, and that magic gets released by way of a placebo effect, the sugar pill in this case being Amma. That may be well and good for some, but if self-realization is the goal, you may as well be eating crap for all the good that sugar is doing you.

 
At 4/16/2007 7:50 AM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Jody said: Agreed. Even bad gurus (which I don't consider Amma to be) can work extremely well for sincere devotees.

Well, since you don't consider her a guru at all, I don't know what you mean by stating that Amma is not a bad guru.

In other words, Amma isn't magic, her devotees are, and that magic gets released by way of a placebo effect, the sugar pill in this case being Amma. That may be well and good for some, but if self-realization is the goal, you may as well be eating crap for all the good that sugar is doing you.

Without realizing it, perhaps, you have called Amma a guru -- one that fits my definition. The catalyst that releases the magic is the guru. For different people, different catalysts. Of course, you may expect a guru to have some special magic that is universally accessible (i.e. to be a universal catalyst), or you may feel that there is no need for a person to be assigned the catalyst role, but that is only your (current) feeling.
You have already set yourself up as a universal guru, advising others of Amma's non-guru-ness, implying that not a single person has been catalyzed by her human form.
Perhaps you are right -- the catalyst is not a single person, but people like you and people like her who together drive the person to self-realization.

 
At 4/16/2007 8:07 AM, Blogger jody said...

I don't know what you mean by stating that Amma is not a bad guru.

I should have phrased it, "of those who are thought to be gurus in the world, you can do a lot worse than Amma."

Without realizing it, perhaps, you have called Amma a guru -- one that fits my definition.

From this regard, anything can be a guru. A dog, rock, tree, homeless guy on the street... anything you believe in can catalyze the power of faith.

You have already set yourself up as a universal guru

That is how you are projecting me. I'm just a fool with opinions about these things. I offer nothing else but my ideas about self-realization and its relationship to (and prevention by) the various beliefs which exist in spiritual culture.

implying that not a single person has been catalyzed by her human form.

I've not implied she doesn't function as a guru, I've stated the example she sets for self-realization sucks. In my opinion, it's up to the guru to set the correct example for self-realization. Amma fails miserably. Self-realization does not turn you into a saint, it does not grant you magic powers, it does not mean you will become a hugging behemoth. It only allows you to see yourself as you really are, and once you see that, you see you are as unspecial as is it is possible to be in this universe.

Perhaps you are right -- the catalyst is not a single person, but people like you and people like her who together drive the person to self-realization.

People like me? All I do is piss people off. If that catalyzes anything, that's all on them and not on me.

 
At 4/16/2007 9:16 AM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Jody said: I've not implied she doesn't function as a guru, I've stated the example she sets for self-realization sucks.

If I had heard that chickens are white birds that lay tasty eggs, and I came across a blue bird that lay eggs, I would take the eggs and run, concluding that perhaps not all chickens are white. Not shout to everyone, "Listen, that is not a chicken! Chickens are white!"

I have found Amma to be a good example, even if setting an example to everyone were a criterion for being a good guru.

 
At 4/16/2007 9:19 AM, Blogger jody said...

I have found Amma to be a good example

So, when you become self-realized, will folks perform arati to your face as if you are God?

 
At 4/16/2007 10:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Then again, I suppose the opposite could be true -- people without any imagination, or people totally stuck up into their minds, might have no experience around someone like Ammachi. Could be so, Stuart.

Because you don't have any experience of anything, it must not be so, sounds like to me. That's fine. I accept your "lack of experiences" experience as one valid mode of human functioning. I don't see any particular need to put it down and call it foolish or stupid, as you seem to feel the need when you hear others who "feel something" around folks like ammachi. Have you ever considered the possibility that you are the one missing a piece? Not the poor "deluded" souls who experience joy and bliss and peace and even awakening in the presence of Ammachi and others?

I praise Jody and others like him here who have exposed the soft underbelly of falsehood that can many times be Gurudom in this world. However, when Jody and others like him become so stuck in the "anti-Guru" thing, they are really inviting another sort of following which becomes, in and of itself, a not-so-new (see U.G. Krishnamurti's work) form of Gurudom. The "all this is crap" school of Gurudom is just as annoying and closed minded to me as all the cultish messes that bill themselves as Avatar(d)s and Gurus these days. It seems to me that an open mind is not always such a bad thing. And that people who genuinely have experiences around masters are not necessarily weakminded, or over imaginative, but perhaps, just maybe, more receptive to God's Grace than you.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:20 AM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Wannabe: I have found Amma to be a good example

Jody: So, when you become self-realized, will folks perform arati to your face as if you are God?

Probably not, but I wouldn't hug people or run charities either. I will be a purple chicken, and they are different.

Yes, the blueness of the Amma-chicken is very much in-your-face, isn't it? If she is indeed an egg-laying chicken, that is.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:27 AM, Blogger semblance s and orchestra said...

So, when you become self-realized, will folks perform arati to your face as if you are God?

~~~~ Jody ! I never thought the arati is such a killer of an issue.
In any case, more than the arati, i think it is important to see if ammachi ever made any statement or indulged in any revelations, where she claimed herself to be the goddess devi and the aphorisms for humanity like kracki did?

The arati still remains the choice of the people and they do arati for just about anything. Even a tree gets such a arati treatment as much as a bull or a 'just married' couple.

when i was sick a couple of years ago(no ! it was not overdoze pot but too much traveling that got me down)my aunt used to visit me everyday and performed arati. She explained, it is to drive away the evil and provide a shield of safety.

What perhaps i would want to object, is her 'devi bhavas'.
Dress up like devi and behave like one.

I would appreciate her enlightenment if she stopped hugging for a couple of months and go on a holiday to bali islands.

I am quite wary about repetitive action in the name of self realization. Im of the opinion that enlightenment leads one to a more unpredictable nature than get obsessed with something and keep repeating it for a lifetime, however holy or sacred it is...

 
At 4/16/2007 10:31 AM, Blogger jody said...

the blueness of the Amma-chicken is very much in-your-face

What's in my face is the fact that most of the chicken-lovers expect that they will become blue chickens, with all the mystifanatical bullshit they believe about their beloved blue chicken. This does nothing but prevent their coming to terms with their own chickenness, which will be anything but blue, seeing as their beloved's blueness is based on nothing more than speculation, superstition, mythology and straight-up infantile need. In other words, an abject and occluding ignorance.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:32 AM, Anonymous wannabe said...

I forgot to add, Jody, that I am not suggesting that you don't criticize Ammachi. I am sure that your criticism is part of the Guru principle, too. Besides, it is fun to read.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:32 AM, Blogger jody said...

a not-so-new (see U.G. Krishnamurti's work) form of Gurudom.

U.G. is like a GOD around here, although we've probably got his ashes whirling like a tornado for saying this.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:37 AM, Blogger jody said...

What perhaps i would want to object, is her 'devi bhavas'.

I'm with you, SSAO. The arati is just another indication of the occluding idea that Amma is more divine than anyone else. The devi bhava takes that ignorance and multiplies it by a few powers of ten.

Clothes and a show do not a goddess make, although it does provide the catalyst for folks to imagine themselves having all kinds of spiritual "experiences" in the context of her imagined power.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:39 AM, Blogger jody said...

it is fun to read.

Thanks, Wannabe. Making it fun to read is equal to my goal of exposing the occluding nonsense about self-realization that constellates around the so-called divine gurus.

 
At 4/16/2007 10:41 AM, Blogger jody said...

It seems to me that an open mind is not always such a bad thing.

And so are the dictates of the Upanishads, which say basically what I'm about to, that any spiritual "experience" that appears to be precipitated by an encounter with Ammachi has as much to do with your own nondual truth as my dog's ass.

 
At 4/16/2007 12:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All of the above amounts to everyone taking their own opinions to be the truth.

YAWN

 
At 4/16/2007 1:04 PM, Blogger jody said...

All of the above amounts to everyone taking their own opinions to be the truth.

Especially including the above.

SNORE!

 
At 4/17/2007 7:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ammachi is not God and never has been. If she were content to be a simple saint who blesses people, she would have to hug so many because most come hopeing that she really is God and will give them money, health, and sex relations. If they had not been led to believe the bullshit that she is God, not so many would be coming and she wouldn't have to work so hard.

 
At 4/17/2007 8:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear all sincere seekers....
I usually check Jody's blog and its quite interesting.
I've been to Amma many times,when she somes to my country.
I'm asian origin and 3 years ago,i went for Amma's darshan with a friend(who is from Us).
When getting darshan,Amma told my friend to sit near her,and there were many more people from asian origin, but none except white persons got that priviledge.
After a long time in my spiritual quest,i found a True Guru.What can i tell is that Amma is a nice lady not a saint,but social worker,doing some good jobs but not a Guru.
Its not a Guru's ROLE to hug people andto gather crowds.
A Guru is a guide towards Self-Realisation and lives in secrecy waiting for deserving discipleS.

 
At 4/17/2007 9:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon said...After a long time in my spiritual quest,i found a True Guru.


Who and where?

 
At 4/17/2007 10:21 AM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Anonymous wrote: When getting darshan,Amma told my friend to sit near her,and there were many more people from asian origin, but none except white persons got that priviledge.
(I have heard) Westerners in the US complain that the Indians get all the attention, Indians in the US complain that a few Malayalam speakers get all the attention, Indians in India complain that the foreigners get special attention, women claim that Amma talks to men more etc. etc. Anyway, anonymous, since you found your True Guru, you need no longer complain about Amma.

 
At 4/17/2007 11:31 AM, Anonymous Betty said...

wanna butt said...since you found your True Guru, you need no longer complain about Amma.

Since you found Amma, you don't need to be complaining about anonymouth complaining about Amma.

 
At 4/17/2007 12:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anyway, anonymous, since you found your True Guru, you need no longer complain about Amma."

I'm in no way complaining about amma.I just want to share my experiences....
Its my point of view...
Many western people don't really know the meaning and role of a True Guru...
A true guru dont gather crowds...
As i have stated, i;m not against Amma...When she came to my country,there was thousand of people waiting for darshan for many hours but i didnt had to wait as i knew some of her close disciples and many more people got that chance....
Its not fair for these thousands of people waiting...
I wonder also why does Amma don't go to poor countries...like ethopie,nigeria,of countries where there is war???
She is doing many things for people in india,so for me she is just a nice lady ,not a Guru...A True Guru lives a simple life,mostly in secrecy,doesnt permit adoration from disciples,doesn't sells or market his orher photos,

"anon said...After a long time in my spiritual quest,i found a True Guru.


Who and where?"

Dear Anon,
i'm not here to make publicity on my Guru...he doesn't permit that!
He live a simple life,teaching some rahasya yogas and sadhanas....

 
At 4/17/2007 4:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What have Amma's charities done in the West? Seems that the money gets taken FROM the West and goes to her charities back home.

Devotees in the West sometimes do service in Amma's name, but you can bet that there is no $$$ coming from the MA Center for those projects. It all goes to India.

Jody, how about some research into THAT?

 
At 4/17/2007 9:12 PM, Anonymous chuck said...

anonymous said...A True Guru lives a simple life,mostly in secrecy,doesnt permit adoration from disciples,doesn't sells or market his orher photos...

Partner, your Guru is likely too pure for the likes of me. Ramana Maharishi got at least a little adoration and certainly had his photo taken and bio written to be sold. No matter what, I will always consider Ramana Maharishi true.

 
At 4/18/2007 7:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is this Chuck, straight forward sincerity? I'm sencing that behind the mule facade and the bib overalls is a heart of gold. Put a blond wig on you and you could almost be a truck stop prostitute on Hee Haw.

 
At 4/18/2007 8:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do know Shemp McGurk. He is true believer in Maharishi who he thinks is the greatest guru who ever lived and who is saving the world. He is mad because some former TM teachers who know and have publicized maharishi's sex adventures now go to see Amma, which is forbidden by the tm movement. By publicizing shemp's views you are promoting Maharishi. To print a headline implying a sex scandal by Amma when there obviously is none and only shemp's biased view of darshan shows how this site has completed its transformation from interest in truth to headline generating muckracking no matter what the truth. The way Amma gives darshan in India with huge crowds is always the same and every darshan event has a "tote board" so people know when to get in line based on their given token.

 
At 4/18/2007 8:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding Amma's charities in the West, the MA Center gave $1 million check to the Clinton-Bush Katrina relief fund. There are numerous other charities operated by amma inspired people in the west - the fact that we don't promote them as amma charities or directly connect to MA center should be admired. Of course the bulk of the money flows from the US to her indian charities - that's the nature of the world.a

 
At 4/18/2007 10:09 AM, Anonymous Chuck said...

anonymous said...Put a blond wig on you and you could almost be a truck stop prostitute on Hee Haw.
................

Err thanks, anonymous! But back when I had hair it was red as East Texas clay and my eyelashes were long as a muley cow's. With all the weight that's gathered around my chest I wouldn't need implants. Hey maybe semblance and I could tag team that goddess temple job. Only problem would be the sitting. When I sit too long the blood is forced from my fart chuckra and settles in my ankles. This pains me!

 
At 4/18/2007 5:43 PM, Blogger jody said...

I do know Shemp McGurk. He is true believer in Maharishi

Hey! Whaddya know! I'm an ass again!

 
At 4/19/2007 7:26 AM, Anonymous Chuck said...

Jody said...Hey! Whaddya know! I'm an ass again!

Jody, don't be hard on yourself. When a guy has a name like Shemp,you are forced by compassion to try to see the best in him.

It was Ammachi's own decision to start claiming to be God and try to get millions of other people to agree with her. The personal cost to her is she has to crucify "herself on a chair daily" to justify the adoration. If she was willing to be a simple saint and not the largest and biggest of the Devis, she wouldn't have to be crucified, just live a simple life of service and inspiration.

 
At 4/19/2007 12:01 PM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Anonymous wrote: To print a headline implying a sex scandal by Amma when there obviously is none and only shemp's biased view of darshan shows how this site has completed its transformation from interest in truth to headline generating muckracking no matter what the truth.
Yes, looks like Jody is doing the very same occlusion that he is so strongly against when Gurus do it.

 
At 4/19/2007 1:17 PM, Blogger jody said...

Yes, looks like Jody is doing the very same occlusion that he is so strongly against when Gurus do it.

Apparently, you wouldn't know what I'm calling "occlusion" from that hole in your rear-end.

I shared someone's opinion about Amma. You may not agree with it, but that's not what I call occluding.

What is occluding is believing that self-realization turns you into a magic space-mommy handing out little gift bags from God. Self-realization has no more to do with Amma's antics on stage than it does with my dog's ass.

 
At 4/19/2007 1:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The personal cost to her is she has to crucify "herself on a chair daily" to justify the adoration. If she was willing to be a simple saint and not the largest and biggest of the Devis, she wouldn't have to be crucified, just live a simple life of service and inspiration."

Would you say the same of Christ?

What an ignorant statement.

Along with all of your ignorant and heartless statements about Amma, you should also pray that you are right.

Reading things like this does not surprise me, because there have been detractors since the beginning of time. However, history 9 times out of 10 proves that they were gravely blinded and mistaken.

So sorry that most of you here incarnated as a group of those types of souls. The only difference in this day and age is that you have the Internet as a tool for your egos and attacking. It's much safer and cowardly than....say....heckling Amma's devotees in the town square or confronting Amma in person with your accusations.

 
At 4/19/2007 1:26 PM, Blogger jody said...

So sorry that most of you here incarnated as a group of those types of souls.

So sorry that you've incarnated as a sheep that is likely to die still ignorant, seeing as you have a head that was stuffed full of mud at that carnival side-show you call an Amma satsang.

 
At 4/19/2007 1:38 PM, Anonymous wannabe said...

Jody, you know you fucked up. Descending to yellow journalism in defence of your (unstated) agenda to badmouth Amma whatever it takes is pathetic and ruins your credibility. And you used to have some of that credibility, even with an Amma devotee like me. This is your blog, so you can have the last word, tho.

 
At 4/19/2007 1:54 PM, Blogger jody said...

Jody, you know you fucked up.

Actually, I know that I didn't. All I did was share some Maharishi-head's opinion about an Amma stadium satsang. Just because he follows another fucked up guru doesn't mean he wasn't on point about Amma.

The only blemish was not knowing Shemp is a rabid TM™er. But since his piece didn't promote TM™ in any way, it remains worthy of inclusion on my blog.

Descending to yellow journalism in defence of your (unstated) agenda to badmouth Amma whatever it takes is pathetic and ruins your credibility.

Get the wax out of your ears, Wannabe. I've stated my agenda time and time again, including in my last response to you. Amma sets a horrible example of self-realization, because her entire public image and persona is based in ridiculous Hindu myths. Believing you will become a Hindu myth yourself upon self-realization only prevents self-realization. That is occlusion. Amma is one of the biggest occlusion polluters on the planet. That is my agenda, one which is stated continuously on these pages.

And you used to have some of that credibility, even with an Amma devotee like me.

Hey, I guess if I cared about credibility I'd be heart-broken over all this.

 
At 4/19/2007 5:45 PM, Anonymous Kali said...

"So sorry that you've incarnated as a sheep that is likely to die still ignorant, seeing as you have a head that was stuffed full of mud at that carnival side-show you call an Amma satsang."

Hillarious. That is EXACTLY the answer I would have predicted from you.

Someone steeped so fully in their own ignorance is far too ignorant to ever know or acknowledge that they are ignorant.

That is why when you read these words you can only respond with anger or name-calling.

Watch, you'll do it again.

 
At 4/19/2007 5:59 PM, Blogger jody said...

Hillarious. That is EXACTLY the answer I would have predicted from you.

That because at your deepest level you know I am right and are agreeing with me.

Someone steeped so fully in their own ignorance is far too ignorant to ever know or acknowledge that they are ignorant.

The same goes for you, my friend.

That is why when you read these words you can only respond with anger or name-calling.

Your projection is noted.

Watch, you'll do it again.

I guess you can't be "clairvoyant" all the time.

 
At 4/20/2007 7:58 AM, Anonymous Chuck said...

anonymustache said...Along with all of your ignorant and heartless statements about Amma, you should also pray that you are right.

.........................

Believe it or not I have a soft spot for Ammachi. When I met her first time in Taos, 1987, I was attracted to her and enjoyed my hug. She had that Slyvester Stallone arrogant as hell swami with her for comic relief. Last time I saw him he'd swelled up big as my uncle Henry, maybe 326 pounds or so, a lot tireder but still arrogant as hell.

By the next year she had realized she could compete with Maharishi and scoop up a lot of his over the hump followers and get their money too. This started by asking people to tell their mantras to her so she could "reinvigorate" them. Since they had vowed not to tell the mantra, it helped break them away from Maharishi and stick them to her. Since she was God it was OK to tell her. And she did get a lot more money. Her org went from shopping center sized to small mall sized.

This competition is what I don't respect about her, not just her org. She's just like She She and wants to be the biggest and only game in town. At least she's got the biggest swami in town, unless he's started eating Jenny Craig!

Thanks anonymustache for trying to put the fear of God in me. I better hope I'm right that Amma is just a woman and not a God, otherwise I'm toasted in hell! If I were going to fall for that fear of God bullshit, I'd have to go back to my home church, where they believe you're gonna burn in hell right beside me! You true believers are really a boring bunch.

 
At 4/20/2007 3:56 PM, Anonymous facedog said...

I've also noticed this tendency to compete by Ammachi and her org. I once asked my guru, Shivabalayogi, if it was alright to love and appreciate other teachers, mentioning Ammachi by name even though I had heard he didn't have much respect for her. He said certainly I should love her and learn anything from her. As a test I went to Ammachi and asked her the same question. She shook her finger and said I had to choose between them. Also suggested I alter the technique of meditation I had learned from Shivabalayogi. Other people have had similar experiences. I know a few of her devotees who are so afraid of being seen visiting other saints that they will go to other cities to see them and avoid being recognized. This seems cult like to me. I like Ammachi but am bothered by this sort of thing. I don't know what makes me more uncomfortable, the idea that Ammachi really believes she is God or that she is not really deluded but just uses this as a way of inspiring her devotees' devotion and contributions.

 
At 4/20/2007 4:20 PM, Blogger jody said...

I like Ammachi but am bothered by this sort of thing.

At the very best, she is a control freak. At her worst:

Smiling faces, sometimes... pretend to be our friend...

Can you dig it?

 
At 4/20/2007 5:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

facedog said...
I've also noticed this tendency to compete by Ammachi and her org.

I was also a devotee of Shivabalayogi and was told by a number of people around Ammachi that as he was leaving his body, Shivabalayogi called out to Ammachi to be with him as he left the earth plane. This was supposed to prove that Ammachi must be God and must be a more advanced soul that Shivabalayogi. This story is bullshit and a cheap shot by either Ammachi herself or those close to her.


I know of smething similar happening with another of the Devis. At the time of Shivabalayogi's mahasamadhi, Karunamayi was just getting started with her US mission and met people who had served Shivabalayogi. She invited the trustees of Shivabalayogi's US mission to come for a private picnic, later called him an incarnation of Shiva and scooped some of these folks and their money into her service. I would call that a cheap shot too. I have seen photos of Karunamayi's private home built with donations. Huge! Also had a balcony built to look like a swan so she could stand on it and give blessings as Goddess Saraswatti. Why do these people need to be God? Why can't they simply be decent human beings doing good work for the poor?

 
At 4/21/2007 1:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>" I have seen photos of Karunamayi's private home built with donations. Huge! Also had a balcony built to look like a swan so she could stand on it and give blessings as Goddess Saraswatti. Why do these people need to be God? Why can't they simply be decent human beings doing good work for the poor? "<<

Isn't it the Chinese Year of the PIG?? Very appropriate, I'd say...oink oink, "sri" Karunamyi and chubby little piggy Nirmala...not to mention all the other pigs feeding at the trough...we have our hedge fund managers; they have their "avatars of god"...samo samo.
anonymous

 
At 5/12/2007 3:40 PM, Anonymous Luther Miller said...

Some people collect stamps, others collect porcelain objects. I suppose we all need something to do with our time and to try and find a little meaning in our meek, mundane lives.
You, sir, seem to have picked an especially trivial pastime - tabloid style, Indian guru-bashing.
I wonder what the rewards are. Is it the money, or the notoriety? Or are you simply a troll under the bridge upon which recovering Christians pass,yelling up at the confused masses who are looking for a different menu to salvation?
I note that you hardly ever dip your naughty stick into the tricks of any Christian gurus or charlatans like Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer.
No, it cannot be that simple. I do not believe you bat for that other team. It must simply be an error of omission, and perhaps you are not an equal-opportunity guru-basher.
Or perhaps the low hanging fruit of bashing Christian evangelicals have already been picked clean, and all that remains in the orchard are the high-perched coconuts of benign Amma and her ilk.
But use care when throwing rocks up into coconut trees...coconuts are not so easy to dislodge, and if you manage to get one, it may fall on your head...

 
At 5/12/2007 6:24 PM, Blogger jody said...

we all need something to do with our time and to try and find a little meaning in our meek, mundane lives.

Speak for yourself, sir! My life is anything but meek and mundane, thank Mother.

You, sir, seem to have picked an especially trivial pastime - tabloid style, Indian guru-bashing.

It's not trivial in my world, brother. The planet is full of those pretending to be more God than you and I. This is the same as pissing upon the Upanishads. Because I am a rather grandiose individual, I seek to defend the Upanishads and the truth within from the assault perpetrated on them by these God-faking big-time gurus.

I wonder what the rewards are. Is it the money, or the notoriety?

There is no money involved, and the notoriety is a small price to pay to help pull folks out of their useless hero-worshipping trances.

Or are you simply a troll under the bridge upon which recovering Christians pass,yelling up at the confused masses who are looking for a different menu to salvation?

My market are not Christians, but the followers of these gurus whose heads have been stuffed full of occluding nonsense about the truths of self-realization.

I note that you hardly ever dip your naughty stick into the tricks of any Christian gurus or charlatans like Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer.

As much as I detest fundamentalist Christians, they are not claiming to be God or especially divine. Those are the people I target with this blog. While I agree the Benny Hinns of the world are a problem, I leave them to others, as I don't see them purposefully occluding the truths of self-realization to establish themselves as divine among their followers.

No, it cannot be that simple. I do not believe you bat for that other team. It must simply be an error of omission, and perhaps you are not an equal-opportunity guru-basher.

I bash anyone who claims to be more God than you or I, or allows those claims to be made for them. Case in point, Ammachi, among the most egregious offenders of the second class stated above.

Or perhaps the low hanging fruit of bashing Christian evangelicals have already been picked clean, and all that remains in the orchard are the high-perched coconuts of benign Amma and her ilk.

Benign in action, perhaps. But she is an ideological rapist of the truths of the Upanishads. For that she is a target of this blog.

But use care when throwing rocks up into coconut trees...coconuts are not so easy to dislodge, and if you manage to get one, it may fall on your head...

I've been bonked a few times, and I'm prepared to be bonked a few more. It's all the will of the Mother, the one that Amma pretends to be for those sheep too mindfucked to see the truth of their own divinity, buried as it is under all the ridiculous things they believe about their guru.

 
At 3/15/2008 9:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "score card" is a big sign that lets people know when they can come for darshan. They hand out tokens to everybody with a number on them. The first hundred tokens say 1-100, the second hundred say 101-200, etc. In this way, they can control the crowd coming for Amma's darshan. If they didn't do this and everyone tried to get in line all at once, it would be total insanity.

 
At 3/22/2008 4:58 AM, Anonymous LeninRajendraSingh said...

Oh yes, she is indeed the god of frauds. I am from the land where she resides,(kerala) and she gets a lot of money and goes on to networking around the world opening free hospitals etc,,, But any one with a lot of money can do it. She is just another ordinary women with extraordinary coworkers to help in her $%&%* works saying that she is god. yeah yeah, we have seen many god so far so don't f$$^k with us ammchi!

 
At 5/02/2008 3:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are usual occurrences of Ammachi spending entire days on here feet hugging and blessing people. If you have met her, and know even an inkling of how to recognize the depth in people, you wouldn't be making such retarded analyses. Does the scoreboard really have a significance over her enormous impact as a social worker and upliftment of people..do you see her shopping around for big screen tvs or SUVs or living in a mansion?

 
At 5/06/2008 6:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is so dumb...haha... this entire discussion is based on those numbers the blogger called a scoreboard.

those numbers are to let the token holders know that their time to enter the line has come. everyone is given a numbered token before the programs.

in the old days, we used to just have a line for people to enter. but the crowds got so big so fast, and subsequently the wait in line became so long, that we devised a token system. this way people can go rest, eat, etc., and just check periodically if their number is coming up.

it has nothing to do with achieving any world record. such ignorance. do some real research.

 
At 10/30/2009 10:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Come on... It is a fun article. Amma has demonstrated that she doesn't care at all. Her organization is a huge bussiness. Just go to an event and if you cannot see what she is about, buy yourselves glasses. I actually have a very bad taste from her darshan.

 
At 12/31/2009 7:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the other point of this story besides "gurubusting" which is just another secularly-politically correct term for "scientific" & "professional journalistic" method for finding walls that can hide the truth. So it is a business. Can someone compare the numbers...I mean the ones with the $$$signs comparing the incomes, actual charity work & those allocated to conversions, creating political strife, staging & orchestrating social discrimination scenarios, self glorification, & mass murders via terrorist activities etc. by all the charities, in the world, most of which are christian (needless to say, supported by the gr8s) & muslim charities. Then do the math....oops...made a mistake...you guys can't do the math...your math follows rules setr by fox tv varsity... Wake up to the side effects of globalization, one of which is rude realty check :-)

 
At 7/12/2010 11:34 AM, Anonymous Grant said...

I'm not against well-meant, well-founded skepticism but...

Given all the good Amma has contributed to the world, I'm shocked that someone would mock the speed at which she has to dispense hugs given the huge crowds that come to see her.

Jody, if you have real criticisms, then please express them as I'd be interested to hear. But this sensationalistic triviality (calling it a "sex scandal", etc.) makes you look like you have an anti-Amma agenda without real reasons.

 
At 7/12/2010 11:43 AM, Blogger jody radzik said...

if you have real criticisms, then please express them as I'd be interested to hear.

By allowing herself to be presented as a living goddess, she is making a terrible example of self-realization. That puts her in the sights.

 
At 7/16/2011 2:36 AM, Anonymous Sex Scandal: Rishi Taavi Kassila, Amma Amritanandamayi's Promoter said...

Amma (Sri Mata Amritanandamayi) tour organizer and promoter, Taavi Kassila, has been publicly accused of secretly seducing young girls, spreading sexual diseases and buying prostitutes in Russia and Estonia. Several women have published their uncomfortable experiences with sex addict Kassila and are prepared to testify in court. Kassila's legal team, headed by Amma follower Kirsi Pettersson are trying to silence the women who are calling for more victims to come forward with their stories and receive counseling.

Sex Scandal: Rishi Taavi Kassila, Amma Amritanandamayi's Promoter

 
At 8/04/2011 2:50 PM, Anonymous Ammachi Covers Up Sexual Predator said...

Amma's organization cover-up connection to top Amma PR man, Taavi Kassila, by deleting all references for Kassila's work from amma.fi website following expose by Kassila's sexual victims.

Kassila was supposed to be an Amma celibate renunciate and was on tour with her in USA as the sex scandal broke

Taavi Kassila was accused of spreading genital herpes, buying prostitutes, attempted seduction of a teenager and massive hidden affairs with your girls. Film director, Taavi Kassila is 57 at the time of writing.


Amma Amritanandamayi Org Erase Evidence to Sex Abuser Taavi Kassila

 
At 8/29/2011 1:57 PM, Anonymous Sudheer said...

Jody whoever you are,

You haven't seen anything of Amma.
I've followed her entourage and at Calicut (Kozhikode) in Kerala, I counted her giving darshan to 25 people a minute, 3 seconds per person-from 9 p.m to 6 a.m next morning. FYI, these ppl are the poor coming in busloads from deep in rural northern Kerala, who can afford only to come there to see her. Who the hell do u think u r to judge their devotion ? Amma does this at such speed because of the time constraint, other programs are to follow-the puja etc.

I've the feeeling htat u have been with Amma for some years and then left, disillusioned. Frankly, I too left after staying there for some years. But it was my problem, not hers. I wasn't ripe for the renunciate life. It is for those who aren't afraid to give everything, even life.

So try to understand and appreciate the culture that u have imbibed from staying with her. That was the most significant period in your miserable life. It is difficult to accept, our egos being swollen as they are! How puerile to judge Amma with your tiny yardstick!
Sudheer

 
At 8/30/2011 8:04 PM, Blogger jody radzik said...

Amma is a symbol of the Shakti, but she herself is nothing more than a woman who seemingly cares about others and found a way to do that. The idea that she has special powers is what draws the country folk; their faith is based on the belief that being in her presence is being in God's presence, and that their problems might be solved as a result. It was on her website. You could call it a crass manipulation, but even if she honestly cares about these people, their folk ideas of enlightenment—endorsed and enjoyed by Amma—translate into occluding notions that kill understanding rather than promote it.

The fact that she hugs so much is no proof of her divinity. There are folks who can run a hundred miles in a day. Amma's talents as a hugger are comparable to those of any leading athlete. We may treat them as gods, but nobody in sports is actually thought of as God. Is a simple white dress, good endurance, and a smile for most all it takes for a talented human being to be seen as God? It actually takes much less … just look at Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.

 
At 12/15/2011 5:10 AM, Anonymous Sudheer said...

Hi Jody,
Your reply shows you need to analyse and be convinced before accepting. Good indeed. Still I doubt that can help when u need to surrender ur intellect.

As regarding the divinity of Amma, I've personal experiences regarding her clairvoyance (in a group of 1000s), seen her answering difficult metaphysical questions, and even healing people. Also, a few times I was able to experience a state of no mind, of expansive consciousness, while in her embrace. Since I'm not used to it, it was difficult to recognize. It was like a giant sponge had absorbed all thoughts.
If the above experiences persuade u to meet Her, it suffices for the time being.
About self-realization, I doubt even such experiences can give the lasting faith to persevere in the quest.

 
At 3/03/2012 10:47 AM, Blogger Amma Kali Doll said...

July 2011. Amma Amritanandamayi's spin doctors try to distance Amma from a sex scandal involving Rishi Taavi Kassila, an Amma organizer who lives and tours with Amma.

http://amma-taavi-kassila-sex-cover-up.blogspot.com/

 
At 4/05/2012 11:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are a truly sad person.You see things from your perspective because this is who you are. Amma doesn't need to compete with anyone. She gives countless hours giving hugs and speeds things up so no one is left out. Anyone who has spent any time around Amma can recount many miraculous stories. Sounds like you need a hug from her to wake you up and get your mind out of the gutter.

 
At 3/19/2013 5:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those who are commenting against Amma, Have you ever seen her? Have you ever seen or tried to live a life that she's living? Let me see you all idiots hugging over 10,000 people everyday for 32 years!! at least shes trying to do something unlike you guys who run around trying to find the faults of others. Try to find the faults in yourself then once you have become realized then go run around and criticize. People say many things about everyone, like what's happening here. It's your decision to choose or not to choose. no one is ever forcing those who go and see her. This is the problem of Christianity and Islam, The religions itself if pure but the people who follow it are corrupt, its never the fault of religion. Why do you guys have to go running around and convert others? let the people choose whatever they believe in. All you guys create is social upheaval, and anger towards one another. SO please as a human being to another human being if you are one, try to learn how to appreciate others works,and their hard work for the world. If you are not going to do anything let others try. This comment is not meant to offend any religious,sex, ethnic, or political groups.
May peace come to us All.

 
At 12/19/2013 11:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some earlier comments got me a little curious..Jody, what exactly do you believe regarding Jesus, who also "claimed" to be the Son of God and the only "way" to salvation? Was he another false guru claiming to be realized? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this since you have stated your objective is to expose anyone claiming to be more "realized" then you or I. Thanks for your comments on this.

 
At 12/19/2013 12:20 PM, Blogger Jody Radzik said...

Jesus: a guy with a new set of memes about spirituality who got ridiculously distorted by history and those who controlled it. If he did say he was the son of God, I doubt he meant he was an exclusive one; I imagine he was speaking about everyone. YMMV.

 
At 12/19/2013 1:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for your reply on this. So if I have understood correctly, Jesus would basically fall into the same category as other teachers/gurus mentioned on your site? And I'm sure you are aware also of all the scandal that has been discussed and argued about his life....that he wasn't really celibate,did not have an "immaculate" birth,expressed anger,etc,etc. Hard to know what's what....thanks for any comment on this...

 
At 12/19/2013 1:14 PM, Blogger Jody Radzik said...

If Jesus were alive today and said he was more God than you or I, I would call him out on it in the same way I do the Ammachis and Sri Sri Ravi Shankars.

 
At 2/21/2014 10:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All you amma followers are actualy blind fools with no intellect whatsoever. You want us to appreciate Amrita for hugging people for long hours...seriously???..Do you guys even know how much she gets as donations for that? You say she is helping the poor..by what?..by hugging?...why cant she provide free food for all?..even a humble guy like narayan Swamy of Madurai daily cooks and feeds the poor people of Madurai three times a day. He left his job as a chef and has now devoted his life for feeding the poor and Mind it,he never claims to be a god man but is still doing something great which you and me can never do( I.e leave our high paying jobs and wake up evryday at 4 am and work till 10 at night for the past 20 yrs)...if Amrita is so passionate for poor then why doesnt the hospital she has opened provide free medical facilities. I know a guy whose daughter criticaly needed a heart surgery and went to Amrita hospital but was first asked to deposit 100,000 INR for the operation to be carried out. He begged them that he is poor and cant afford the same.he was asked to go to the government hospital. Then everybody in the society contributed and raised the fund and then only his daughter was admitted. The wealth she has why cant she help others with it. Now you blind fools will once again argue that mata doesnt have a fortune. I have no answer to that, not because I am wrong but because I will be having pity on how blind somebody can be. She has so much money ammased in Swiss bank accounts and even her colleges,schools,hospitals earn so much profit. Last but not the least there is only one god. And he is not her. Puhleaseee!!!...she says she doesnt even menstruates as she is pure then why the hell is she turning old and fat)..strange a god cant even remain young and is having the same physical changes that we are having but no pms..ha ha..and believe me ppl ,please font reply to my post asking me anything more as I would rather go and watch a dog pooping than reply to her blind followers

 
At 2/23/2014 4:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this ammachi is No 1 fraud...I know that clearly, because I am from her village.....all of here sisyas are frauds & criminels...

 

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