Bus Stop Amma
File under: Amma All-Over-The-Planet and The Siddhi of PR
She may not be hooking on the corner in front of the bus stop, but Ammachi has taken the pimping of herself to a whole new plane with the arrival of this poster on the side of buses in northern New Mexico.
This appears to cast Amma as more of an actress than a guru, with her satsang being a mere performance rather than a holy event. Back in the day, actresses and hookers were pretty much the same thing, seemingly making this development in the marketing of this space-mommy a fall from grace for both Amma and the bus.
Labels: Amma All-Over-The-Planet, The Siddhi of PR
posted by guruphiliac @ 9:52 AM
66 Comments:
She is just getting her message across. She wants to help more people. Can't you see that, she is a humanitarian.
she is a humanitarian
She is a cyclone of occluding nonsense about the truths of self-realization. This effectively eclipses any value she has as a humanitarian, in my opinion.
One of my big "aha!" moments about my old guru Gurumayi came when her tour came to Oakland CA. They put up posters all around town that had her smiling face and info about her programs, and in bold letters: "One look, one touch, one thought, and your life can be transformed."
And I thought about how these posters were an opportunity to convey any sort of message, and she chose to avoid *any* sort of teaching. Not a word about meditation, or life direction, or helping others, or the nature of the self, or the great questions of life. Just self-promotion, period.
I applaud Amma's humanitarian acts. They're wonderful and inspiring. I don't applaud the self-promotion. Do you know that guy who invented a new strain of rice that drastically reduced starvation in parts of Africa and Asia? Of course you don't, because he just made his efforts to help the world, and didn't spend time trying to make himself a star.
Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm
OH GOD NO!!!!!
(some DEVOTEES are actually embarrassed about this type of thing.)
Amma!!!!! WTF is going on??????!!!!!!!
What are her humanitarian projects in the United States? I was always under the impression that money is accumulated in the West and then used for humanitarian activities in India. Please correct me if I am wrong.
From initial observation, it seems that money is collected here in the United States and then dispersed in India. I am unaware of any programs for the poor or housing projects in the US or in any other country besides India, for that matter. There are small groups of Amma followers doing small projects here and there (like soup kitchens for example)...but that is done with money from their own pockets.
I know that perhaps the West is viewed as wealthy in comparison with most of the rest of the world, yet we have plenty of poor here, plenty dying from lack of healthcare and plenty of people dying on the streets.
So again, I am honestly searching for answers as to what amount of "Western money" is going to help Westerners. Or, is it all going to India? Or, is it just viewed as a case of "steal from the rich and give to the poor"? I don't get it.
Thoughts??? Jody, maybe some research and a thoughtful post on this subject?
Do people ever bring this up or notice this at all?
"She is a cyclone of occluding nonsense about the truths of self-realization."
What are you talking about? Amma only speaks the truth. She does not lead her children astray.
She does not speak any nonsense, but only the highest truths. Every word out of Ammas mouth is pure truth. She teaches on all levels, from Bhakti to Jnana Yoga.
She teaches the path to direct self-realization. And she helps her children through her Grace.
She selflessly serves her children. And if she wants to reach more people, what better way than to advertise on a bus. This will reach the average person, they will see this and might want to come and see her.
She teaches the path to direct self-realization.
I'm afraid you've drank way too much Kool-Aid to ever get what I'm talking about.
Jody, maybe some research and a thoughtful post on this subject?
And break my solid streak of thoughtless, uninformed pontification? NEVER!
Whatever. I am a devotee of Amma and I adore her, but seeing her image on the side of a bus like this makes me want to bury my head in the sand.
Next, I'll be seeing my gurus face on discarded McDonald's wrappers and Coca-Cola cups.
I am not sure how much Amma has to do with this, but I doubt she told someone to plaster her face on the side of a bus. I doubt she tells these cells of hyper-vigilant devotees to do half of the crazy shit they do. Logistically speaking, she just doesn't have the time. Then, there's the fact that she also likes to let people dig themselves a hole to China. I suspect this may account for some of the ridiculous things you see going on around her.
> What are her humanitarian
> projects in the United States?
Charitable work is a good thing. Why quibble about the geographical location of the people being helped?
Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm
To the devotee of Amma. I don't know why you are so embarrased that your guru is advertising on a bus. I don't see anything wrong with it and think it is a good idea. It will be seen by many more average, ordinary people and they will be led to your guru. Please re-think your take on this. It is a good thing.
To the person who commented on where Ammas charity goes. I think that is a good question. You are right on, there is plenty of poor people needing help here too in this country.
I know personally some good Amma people who have volunteered at a homeless shelter or did other good humanitarian deeds. But like you pointed out, all on their own, with their own resources as far as I know, and not from any charity from Amma.
It is good what she is doing in India, but what about the rest of the world? This is a valid area to investigate. Or as Stuart said, why quibble about where it is being done. That is a valid point too. But I would like to personally see some of the money coming from the rich westerners going back to some of the needy westerners. But thats my take on it.
It is a good thing.
Sure it is, if you want you guru to be compared to the latest sugar-filled soft drink product. Which, appropriately enough, is kinda what Amma is as a guru.
Jody, did you personally take the picture of Amma on the side of the bus, or did somebody send it in to you? It is a good picture, and speaks volumes. I love looking at it, for I feel Ammas presence and Grace. It is such a blessing on so many peoples lives that this picture of her is going around New Mexico for all to see. I am sure even the bus driver and all the passengers are benefitting from this picture and energy on the side of the bus. This was a brilliant and divine idea by Ammas org to do this. HOpefully every city will follow suit and Amma will be seen everywhere.
did you personally take the picture of Amma
Yes.
It is a good picture
Thanks.
I am sure even the bus driver and all the passengers are benefitting from this picture and energy on the side of the bus.
You are an example of a virulent case of occlusion poisoning by way of an injection of the superstitious nonsense and mythological bullshit peddling that occurs at an Amma satsang. God help you and may She take your milky Kool-Aid away from you so you can see the truth as it actually is rather than as how Amma's org wants you to think it is.
On a side note, about advertising via a bus or other moving vehicles. I was in Las Vegas, sin city, recently, and I walked a lot up and down the strip, Las Vegas Blvd. And every few minutes you saw a moving billboard on a truck go by usually for an adult oriented strip club or escort service or whatever thing like that, and usually it wasn't just one billboard, but usually 3 of them would come in a row. They also advertised for hotel shows like Jay Leno,etc. It is an effective way for people to see what you are advertising. It is really hard to miss it when you are out walking. So maybe Ammas org knows something about psychology or advertising, or learned something from Vegas. Something to think about. Some will say it is good and some will say it is bad, but the bottom line is, it is probably going to be very effective in drawing New Mexicoians to her free satsang.
"The marketing of this space-mommy a fall from grace for both Amma and the bus."
How could this be a fall for the bus? The bus company is only concerned about getting revenue from advertising on the side of it. It is a handy extra simple way to generate more income, rather than from just passenger fares.
The bus company would be happy to have Amma plastered on all of its buses, from Northern to Southern New Mexico.
I wrote: "I am sure even the bus driver and all the passengers are benefitting from this picture and energy on the side of the bus."
Jody wrote: "You are an example of a virulent case of occlusion poisoning by way of an injection of the superstitious nonsense and mythological bullshit peddling that occurs at an Amma satsang. God help you and may She take your milky Kool-Aid away from you so you can see the truth as it actually is rather than as how Amma's org wants you to think it is."
Jody, you will not admit the possibility that some might benefit from seeing her picture or being led to her satsang.
There is energy in darshan. Many Masters and Avatars and Gurus have used the look, the glance to help spread divinity.
AMma is no different. I guarantee you that the bus is influencing more people on a higher level by having Ammas picture on it than say a ad for a soft drink. There is just no way to deny this.
Ammas energy is being spread through this picture, and it is a blessing for all.
"She selflessly serves her children."
Oh, does she have children? I thought she was a monastic.
anon.
Anonymous wrote:
"It will be seen by many more average, ordinary people...."
You indicate that there is some difference between Amma devotees and "average, ordinary people". What on earth does that mean? Are you listening to a word Amma says? Please explain "average, ordinary people" as opposed to those who are devotees of Amma. I do not consider myself above average or unique simply because I have chosen Amma as my guru.
This is why Jody is right on when he references Kool-Aid drinking. All of this robotic newage-speak by devotees of Amma is what makes the entire scene around her look like a three ring circus.
Trying to mimic the guru without having any experience or knowledge attached to what you are doing just makes the guru look bad. Amma has said the same herself.
Amma's face plastered across a bus is just plain bad taste. Period.
you will not admit the possibility that some might benefit from seeing her picture or being led to her satsang.
Some may benefit from going to an Amma satsang, but I bet they'd benefit much more if they went to a good psychotherapist instead.
Many Masters and Avatars and Gurus have used the look, the glance to help spread divinity.
You mean many devotees have been led to believe they receive "divinity" in a glance. Too bad there's no more divinity in a glance than in my dog's ass, no matter who is doing the glancing.
There is just no way to deny this.
Yes there is. You are repeating a facile fairy tale about the nonexistent power of the guru. Every single bit of power is with the devotee. It gets released by a BELIEF in the guru's power, not in any actual power that the guru supposedly has.
Ammas energy is being spread through this picture, and it is a blessing for all.
Keep chugging that Kool-Aid. You obviously aren't ready for the truth.
By average, ordinary people, I was referring to the many people who take the bus. Not just spiritual people.
I just don't get why you all think it is in such bad taste to advertise this satsang on a side of a bus.
But each to their own. Maybe its because I take the bus a lot and I appreciate what us ordinary, average people go through to get from point a to point b.
And I glad to see Ammas shining smile on the bus and it reminds me of Truth.
No more talk from me on this issue. I have made myself clear. I love the ad and want to see more of Amma advertised everywhere. Including moving billboards in Vegas.
And I glad to see Ammas shining smile on the bus and it reminds me of Truth.
OMG!
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Amma's face on the side of a bus has as much to do with Truth as my dog's ass.
You are now mind-fucked beyond all hope with completely erroneous notions about self-realization. Your "Truth" is nothing more than a black sludge which covers your eyes and prevents you from seeing the actual truth... All due to your need to have a magic space-mommy to make everything o.k. and the needs of Amma's org to convince us she's divine so we'll keep giving her money.
First, the organization has a fit over photos of Amma on the Internet, and then they plaster her face to the side of a bus. Strange.
You can bet you'll never see a photo of her in Devi Bhava on the side of a bus though. That would not fit with the impression they want to show publicly of her.
Broadcasting to the world that she is an incarnation of Kali would not fly well either. Best to stick to the hugging saint part and leave the whole Devi thing out of it. Naked black women decorated in severed heads wouldn't really fly too well in the West. Anyone who has spent time around Amma knows who she is, and it's not something as simple as "being divine" or "filled with grace" or "Truth" or any of these types of generic responses that most repeat like parrots.
What the world sees of Amma is carefully handpicked and administered with all of the plotting, planning and eliminating that one would expect from a corporation.
Therefore, it is best to peel back that veneer (as tough and heavy as it may be) and rely on your own personal experiences/interactions with her in order to find the truth of who she is.
Anyone who pays attention, knows that she is much more than all of the fluff that goes on around her. But then again, so are you.
One of the anonymous ones wrote:
>>From initial observation, it seems that money is collected here in the United States and then dispersed in India. I am unaware of any programs for the poor or housing projects in the US or in any other country besides India, for that matter. There are small groups of Amma followers doing small projects here and there (like soup kitchens for example)...but that is done with money from their own pockets.<<
Though I am not an "ammabot" devotee, I volunteered at a "Mother's Kitchen" soup kitchen for several years, and never spent a dime of my own money except for carfare uptown. Food for the kitchen was largely donated (day-old pastries, overripe or bruised produce, etc.), and the rest (staples such as pasta, cheese, etc.) was purchased. I'm not sure where the funds came from -- I was told there was a benefactor -- but I was never asked personally to contribute money.
Also, Ammachi's organization sent volunteers and resources (clothing, etc.) down south to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina. Donations for this project came from devotees, of course, as does the money for humanitarian work in India.
Say what you might about Amma's self-promotion, many good works are accomplished in her name, big and small. It may be the "in her name" part that rankles some, but I'd rather see these humanitarian efforts happening than not; and I'm also not picky about the geography of the people receiving help.
Anyone who pays attention, knows that she is much more than all of the fluff that goes on around her.
Of course. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have a hand in cultivating that fluff for certain economic considerations.
But then again, so are you.
Truly, we are EVERY bit as much as the Self as she. If we could only get our heads around the fact that this is normal rather than special, maybe folks could actually benefit spiritually from an Amma hug, rather than imagining it's the basket of all that is good by the power of the Shakti that has incarnated as Amma. Amma doesn't have any more shakti than my dog's ass. The whole idea of shakti being something that is transmitted from person to person is ridiculous. All shakti comes from within. All Amma is doing is giving you permission to have your own shakti by way of your belief in her power.
"All shakti comes from within. All Amma is doing is giving you permission to have your own shakti by way of your belief in her power."
I agree with that (mostly). Amma would agree with it too. Amma herself has realized this and she is trying to impart it to others through her teachings. Whether it is a hug that awakens that within them or whether she smashes someone in the face and it awakens it is irrelevant. How many times does she have to repeat things like "Amma is your very self." or "Amma is within you."? That is the basis of her teachings. What people see as Divine in Amma, is a reflection of themselves. She says this. She tries to exemplify it as best she can. All else that goes on is a result of what always happens when an organization is involved.
"Amma doesn't have any more shakti than my dog's ass."
While I am no way qualified to gauge the amount of shakti coming out of your dog's ass, I have experienced that Amma can manifest quite a shakti current, and she does manifest some powerful, and at times mind-blowing phenomena and acts of grace. There is no way these types of things could be comprehended unless you spent a lot of time around her and remained open. That does not mean casting aside critical thinking or becoming an "amma-bot". In fact, in sometimes means throwing away a lot of what those around her would have you believe. Challenge her. Get in her face and demand that she show you something (or nothing). She is not just hugs and smiles. Kali weaves through her in a certain way that seems incomprehensible/impossible if not experienced directly.
All of the occluding nonsense about the truths of self-realization is not coming from Amma. I have never heard her say anything of the sort. I have heard others say certain things, but I prefer listening to the one I call my guru. She tells me that the same Self within her is the same one within me, and I believe her because I have seen it for myself. Whether the first hug led me down that road or the first time she smiled at me led me down that road is irrelevant. And that is why I love her.
I agree with so much of what you say, yet I often do not agree with where the blame is placed. She is not deliberately deluding people, some people just are not listening. If you listen to the ones that are not listening to her, of course it will seem like she is teaching nonsense.
Amma hugs people, not to impart some magic juice to them, but to show that selflessness and love on a grand scale is possible for a soul to do while in a human body. If people think that the hug is helping making them self-realized or that Amma is a magician of some sort, then that is part of their perception (which is EXACTLY what she is working against). Amma is trying to make people realize that "God" is what IS. That God is not relegated to some pie in the sky fantasy, but is right HERE in everyone and everything, including your dog's ass. That is what she teaches.
Hi to all sincere seekers....
Most westerners are like blind sheep waiting for a guru like vishwananda or Amma to guide them!!!
This message is specially addressed to most westerners....
Do people really know the meaning of a "Guru"???....
"Genuine Gurus are few and far between, and most who claim to be enlightened are far from it. In this instance, at best, the Guru is a spiritual practitioner who had attained a certain level of spiritual mastery and therefore was competent to teach others the same path. This is the basis of any true Transmission of Doctrine in any society. The Guru would have a few close and sincere disciples around him (more rarely "her", in view of the patriarchial nature of traditional Indian society) and live in humble unassuming surroundings."
The fake guru (or hypothetical con-artist) uses all the trappings, but this is just a ploy to fool people out of their money or whatever. In other words, good at manipulating people, and creating the whole thing as a scam. They care nothing at all about spirituality or esotericism, to them it is just mumbo-jumbo, but it is also a good way to fool people, so they invent a story or teaching based on a mishmash of New Age or pop guru material that can be read anywhere.
A true Guru don't gathers masses
A true Guru don't auto-proclaim himself or herself god
A true Guru don't sells and market his pictures
A true guru don't go around collecting money
A true guru dont show any magic or miracles
A true guru dont' permit adoration from disciples
A true guru dont make publicity about him and dont permit disciples to do it either
A true Guru doesnt permit organizations around their teachings
About Organizations
he emotional and devotional seekers of Truth think that if they join a spiritual group, organization or hermitage, this will expedite their spiritual growth, or help them to make quick progression in their spiritual endeavors.These feelings in them are natural and normal.
But when they actually join an organization, they find out that a lot of work is involved, and, contrary to their expectations, they do not have enough time to meditate.
This is not the mere logical deduction, inference or intellectual speculation of the author, who himself had direct experience in his young days studying and living with others in a hermitage (without joining formally and officially), and who witnessed and experienced firsthand what organizations could offer.
During the devotional seekers’ sojourn in the hermitage, they find themselves in an uncomfortable situation, having no time for actual meditation, and they become disillusioned. At this point, the honest seekers will leave the organization and seek out the right lifestyle to pursue the spiritual path.
Some seekers develop interest in name and fame and hang around the organization for a while. They engage in a play of power and, if they lose, then they split from the main organization and start their own new organization and become the head.
Others stay on in the organization as they have established an easygoing lifestyle and are afraid to venture out. They are haunted by feelings of insecurity and are so weak that they cannot consider leaving their secure way of life together with the other hermits.
The organized way of religious groups provides an opportunity for the general public to promote their religious life in society, apparently. Society has developed this notion that living in the spiritual communities or organizations will enhance their spiritual progress.
In fact, the spiritual organizations are nothing but Kindergarten schools for novices on the spiritual path.
The organized way of religion the very idea itself originates from confusion, and the seeker is tricked by the mind in a subtle way. Mind is the Satan, and mind plays subtle tricks on the seeker of Truth who feels to join the hermitage for a better lifestyle imagining this will help him make progress.
Organized religious groups send their agents to society to preach to people whose time is not ripe, unsettling their minds and creating more confusion in them. To speak truthfully, the people’s providence triumphs. They simply are not able to understand such theoretical preaching, and the words of the so called spiritual leaders are not effective because when their preaching strikes the providence of others, it becomes fragmented.
The realized Masters restrain themselves and do not bother to unsettle the minds of the people, but rather effectively help the seekers whose time is ripe. They keep themselves inward and enjoy the Tranquility in Oneness. Here, the Guru-Param-Para way, being the righteous way, helps the seeker to dissolve the sophisticated tricks of the mind and dissolves the negative aspect of individuality, thereby pointing to the qualitative aspect of life.
Joining organized religious groups and allowing oneself to be involved in an apparent renunciate life points to the quantitative aspect. Through the quantitative way, people never achieve the qualitative way. Only by dissolving the mind in its Source and being in Oneness with the pure Consciousness does the seeker attain the infinite Consciousness qualitatively and quantitatively as well.
To speak the truth, in the language of the great ancient Yogi Patanjali, Asteya means not to steal under any circumstances. Allowing oneself to be involved in the collection of donations on behalf of non-profit organizations, in the strict and subtle spiritual sense, amounts to stealing from the donors. And, as such, in the spiritual light, it is an act of connivance which pollutes both the hermits and the donors.
Similarly, Aparigraha, that is, help or donations from others without unconditional love and affection, but rather conditional with attachment, desires and expectations of getting something in return (for example, tax deductions, being healed from physical, mental and spiritual ailments, obtaining a lucrative position, or any favor whatsoever, including winnings from lawsuits), pollutes the receivers of such donations. As a result, they cannot improve their lot on the spiritual path. So the effect of the donor’s cause goes to the receivers of the donations, the hermits or renunciates, and contaminates them, regardless of what they practice.
The seeker might remember that the Holy Bible spoke, in the same spirit, of ten Commandments to practice and observe, for attaining inner Realization of the ultimate Self.
The subtle point is that the hermits are already tempted by the subtle tricks of the mind to find better security in organized religious groups. The lifestyle maintained through such polluted donations prevents the hermits from improving their situation. They simply fail to perceive it, as they are in a confused and/or complacent state of mind and are terrified of losing their security in their old age.
Accepting donations does not affect the realized yogi, who never sees anyone except the ultimate Self. Advanced yogis sometimes do accept donations under certain circumstances in order to keep harmony, but they do not accept these for personal use, and thus they remain free from pollution. They simply give away such donations to some needy people.
The subsistence from the organizations supported by accrued conditional donations pollutes the food, breath, sentiments and energy and puts the hermits into a confused state.
I'm not against Amma,she thinks she is a saint but she is only a humanitarian that all
Anon said:
From initial observation, it seems that money is collected here in the United States and then dispersed in India.
In that case, she really comes to be an angel! In a more usual case money is collected in the US, in India, in Timbaktoo, in whatever... but never gets dispersed anywhere.
I agree that there should be some equitable distribution of money collected but I would ignore it is a minor sin compared to She-She-s of the world who hoard everything to themselves. I do not know how much she earns worldwide, but I have been to her ashram in India and I think she spends some serious money on humanitarian projects too.
We start with a kernel of reality. Someone goes to Amma's satsang and experiences something himself. If he expresses it honestly, it might go something like, "When I got a hug from Amma, I got a warm feeling in my heart that was very very pleasant."
(This is a hypothetical. Personally, I felt Amma's hug was just like a hug from any other nice, motherly figure.)
Then this kernel or truth gets mixed with a ton of hearsay. The aspiring devotee reads books, hears lectures, and listens to mobs of true believers. He ends up repeating what he reads or hears like a parrot, but pretending that it's based on experience.
That's how you end up with statements like, "I guarantee that everyone on the bus benefits from seeing Amma's photo. No one could deny it." The use of words that convey such certainty is a way of disguising the fact that the speaker has wandered so far afield from any actual experience.
Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm
adevotee said...
> How many times does she have to
> repeat things like "Amma is your
> very self." or "Amma is within
> you."?
Communication is more a matter of actions than words. It's very very common in "spiritual" groups that the explicit word teaching is one thing, while actions implicitly convey something else.
> I have experienced that Amma can
> manifest quite a shakti current,
> and she does manifest some
> powerful, and at times mind-
> blowing phenomena and acts of
> grace.
If you look very carefully at the experiences that lead you to make such claims, you'll see that all you really know is that you got certain feelings. Beliefs about a "shakti current" or "grace" are speculations, things that you heard or read and mixed in with what you actually experienced yourself.
It's not that you're doing anything terrible. It's just that I can't put much stock in someone's words until they can at least distinguish personal experience from speculative beliefs.
> I agree with so much of what you
> say, yet I often do not agree
> with where the blame is placed.
> She is not deliberately deluding
> people
There's no need for any blame. It's not that Amma's doing anything terrible; in fact, she's making lots of people feel good, and inspiring some people to be more charitable. It's perfectly possible that this outweighs the number of people she inspires to become more pompous and self-involved.
It's also true that there are some people in the world who have a special talent for pointing others away from delusion. If Amma finds herself surround by people who weave this web of delusion, I'd conclude that she has less than perfect skill at pointing others to truth. And that people who want a teacher who clearly points to truth might consider looking elsewhere.
> If people think that the hug is
> helping making them self-
> realized or that Amma is a
> magician of some sort, then that
> is part of their perception
> (which is EXACTLY what she is
> working against). Amma is trying
> to make people realize
> that "God" is what IS.
I do really like the idea that Amma's hugging crusade is just an elaborate way of demonstrating the power of ordinary, everyday acts of kindness. But really... if the perception that she's an extra-divine beings with magical powers is EXACTLY what she's working against... how could any impartial judge deny that she's failing miserably with legions of followers around the world?
Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm
Stuart said...If you look very carefully at the experiences that lead you to make such claims...
...........
I am not a devotee or follower of Amma in any way. I do not care for her claiming to be God, etc. I do not go to her for darshan or think of her, ever, unless I read about her here... But in 1988 I saw her in Madison, Wiss and gave her a bottle of water that I filled from the tap to be blessed. So did my wife. After she blessed it I drank some and was dissapointed that it tasted like the tap water it was... The next morning both of our bottles were 1/3 filled with sediment that smelled like sandal wood and had a distinct taste that was different from tap water. How did this happen?
How do you explain her licking the wounds of a leper and not being physically affected whatsoever, among countless other documented pheonomenon that has occurred around her?
countless other documented pheonomenon
You mean countless embellished anecdotes.
"You mean countless embellished anecdotes."
No, that's not what I meant. That's how you interpreted it.
Hey Jodi, you are some Karista agent of the Baptists. Why only Hindu Gurus?
amma's face is on buses in SanFrancisco, I have seen, only on the back in this case. i don't
see how it is any different from the way her organization does it's other publicity, it is a logical extention. big loud and tacky. amma gets alot of work out of people to get donations for Indian Charities, yet there is an EX-devotee of hers who has written that most of it does'nt get to where it should.
jody said...
countless other documented phenomenon
You mean countless embellished anecdotes.
..................
Jody, I cannot speak to Amma licking the wounds of lepers and birds dropping fish at her feet, which she ate...etc, etc. But my own experience described above is not embellished. It happened to both myself and my wife and I would truly like to understand the phenomenon.
As I said, I am not an Amma devotee or supporter. The scene around her repulses me and I have not been willing to be around it since 1994. I agree with you that the "ideas" promoted by Amma and her followers are not helpful for knowing the truth only in keeping the dream going on and on. My own experiences with her lead me to believe she is a jealous master who wants to keep her followers controlled. I have known several of them who are afraid to be seen visiting other teachers, which I feel is a flashing neon sign saying, "This is a cult."
Nevertheless, the experience of water being transformed in some way happened. I did not experience any kind of miraculous healing from the water, nor did my wife, but both bottles did indeed fill with clearly visible sediment which smelled like sandalwood. Other than saying it didn't happen, do you have any ideas?
Why only Hindu Gurus?
Actually, it's any guru who claims – or allows others to claim for them – that they are more God or especially divine.
Stuart wrote:
It's also true that there are some people in the world who have a special talent for pointing others away from delusion. If Amma finds herself surround by people who weave this web of delusion, I'd conclude that she has less than perfect skill at pointing others to truth. And that people who want a teacher who clearly points to truth might consider looking elsewhere.
************
This is a great point, Stuart. I think it's at the heart of many a cult. The guru says 'look within', the culture of the organization says 'look to the guru', and the multitudes can see that the people most trusted by the guru are those who look to her/him, not those who look within. Where have those close devotees learned to be sycophants? Why hasn't the wise, enlightened guru's 'look within' message penetrated? Either the guru isn't teaching them very well, or s/he is teaching them exactly what she wants them to learn. Either way, if you're a sincere student, looking for truth, you lose.
And in most groups, the 'look within' message is only for the masses--once you have penetrated to the guru's close circle, the 'occluding nonsense' gets very very thick. I'm not saying that's true in Amma's org, I don't know. If she sincerely wants people to look within, seems to me she has a responsibility to 'point others to truth' to use Stuart's words, and she isn't doing that very effectively.
Anon said:
Why only Hindu gurus?
Actually, Jody is trying to diversify a bit. Two recent articles were on Sikh gurus. Sadly, they do not seem to arouse as much interest. (Zero comments so far combined together).
By far hindu gurus are most colorful. And hinduism offers the greatest lattitude for subjectivity in religion.
anonymous said:
> Genuine Gurus are few and far
> between, and most who claim to
> be enlightened are far from it.
This is something you can read in a book and repeat like a tape recorder. It doesn't describe anyone's direct experience, or a conclusion that can be logically drawn from experience.
It's at least equally as valid for me to say the opposite: Genuine Gurus aren't few and far between. They're literally the most common thing in the world. All beings, all things, all situations can teach you perfectly. Whatever you're perceiving right now: *that's* a genuine guru.
facedog said...
> my own experience described
> above is not embellished. It
> happened to both myself and my
> wife and I would truly like to
> understand the phenomenon.
I'd first of all question the importance of understanding magical phenomena. If you did somehow understand how water can magically change to sandalwood... how would that help you? It's not like sandalwood is all that precious. I actually prefer my water to smell like water.
Maybe it's just that the world is so filled with amazing things that I don't understand, that I've just stopped sweating the small stuff. I mean, when I want to scratch my nose, I merely think about it, and my hand magically moves to do it. How in the world can my mere thinking control this material body? Can't hardly get more mysterious than that!
Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm
hinduism offers the greatest lattitude for subjectivity in religion.
Hinduism by far produces the most flimflammers claiming to be more God than you and I, hence their preponderance in the Guruphiliac record.
stuart said...
I'd first of all question the importance of understanding magical phenomena.
I understand and appreciate this point of view Stuart but would still like to understand the experience without reference to Amma being God.
Regarding licking wounds and not getting sick and transforming water...
It is not unheard of for certain gurus to have used stage magic.
Wounds can be faked with stage make up. One has to take devotee's word for it that the people whose wounds were licked were actually lepers. Did they have a certificate of diagnosis from a reputable physician?
Has Amma actually been tested for leprosy by a reputable physician?
And...who would dare raise these questions in her presence? Many who visit Amma are probably consciously or unconsciously seeking a fairy tale and would resent anything that would dispel the warm fuzzy pink hued atmosphere of relaxing into a collective fantasy and its communal power-grid.
At the very least, anyone daring to ask lucid questions that break this sort of trance would at the very least, risk being shouted down and escorted off the premises.
At worst, they'd probably risk being assaulted.
This over the top cynicism/criticism is just as delusional as the over the top fanaticism. They both indicate some sort of mental aberration, because the cynics are just as rabidly obsessed with their own opinions as the fanatics are (as evidenced by most of the commentary here). Everyone thinks they are right and gets all worked up over their own perceptions and no manner of convincing from either side is going to change either side.
If you are skeptical as to Amma's "magical powers" or lack thereof, why not go up for darshan and challenge her to show you who she is? You don't have to make a big scene and get kicked out of the hall to do it either. Until then, all of your criticism is based on just as much hearsay and delusion as the "Amma-bots" thoughts and actions are. Until then, it is based on all of the hooplah that you see going on around Amma. It is based on what the external scene looks like to you, things you may have read, organizational fluff, bad ideas in publicity, listening to kooky devotees and on and on. All of the same things that turn devotees into mindless Amma-bots. Two opposite sides of the fence, similar reasons for arriving at a conclusion.
Here is a suggestion: Simply go up for darshan and say to Amma in a matter-of-fact way (or better yet hand her a note and don't leave until they translate it to her): I do not believe that you are an incarnation of Kali and further, I don't believe that you have more shakti than anyone else. I dare you to show me that you are. I challenge you.
Do that, give it some time. Maybe a week or two. Don't have any expectations. Most likely, you'll be filled with doubt. Then, form an opinion based on that experience. Until then, every perception you have of her is based on the theme park that has grown up around her. The equivalent of judging a book by its cover (granted it's a very thick cover)...but why not try to form an opinion by digging a bit deeper?
Some devotees don't want to dig deeper, and certainly most critics don't want to. Why would they? It would feel like a waste of time because everyone is convinced they are already right. Talk about occlusion.
Tell her to her face to show you who she is. What have you got to lose? A few hours waiting to go up there? Your head?
why not go up for darshan and challenge her to show you who she is?
Because I already know who she is. And I know she's not more of that than anyone else.
It is based on what the external scene looks like to you, things you may have read, organizational fluff, bad ideas in publicity, listening to kooky devotees and on and on.
Right, and all those things collude to create occlusion about realization. That's what I comment on.
I've said all along, Amma is the best of the big-time gurus. But that doesn't mean the hoopla doesn't do more harm than good.
why not try to form an opinion by digging a bit deeper?
Because it's not important to me. What is important is the hoopla, because that is how the damaging ideas get spread.
Tell her to her face to show you who she is. What have you got to lose? A few hours waiting to go up there? Your head?
Maybe. It's not going to happen, so we'll never know.
why not try to form an opinion by digging a bit deeper?
Because it's not important to me. What is important is the hoopla, because that is how the damaging ideas get spread.
So, you are saying that what is important to you is examining only what is on the surface. You are only interested in commenting on hoopla. The hoopla is what is important. I get it. I didn't start to notice the hoopla until I had already fallen in love with her. So, I am coming from a different perspective in that sense. I had already established a strong enough relationship with her to be able to deal with the fluffy circus (difficult, yes). I take what is truthful and beneficial and throw the rest away. I do not involve myself with other devotees at all.
Though, my comments about challenging Amma were not directed at you at all. I was referring mainly to the above post by "anonymous" who was going on about:
And...who would dare raise these questions in her presence? Many who visit Amma are probably consciously or unconsciously seeking a fairy tale and would resent anything that would dispel the warm fuzzy pink hued atmosphere of relaxing into a collective fantasy and its communal power-grid.
At the very least, anyone daring to ask lucid questions that break this sort of trance would at the very least, risk being shouted down and escorted off the premises.
At worst, they'd probably risk being assaulted.
This was what I was responding to. If someone wants to ask lucid questions they should do it regardless of whether the organization likes it or not. That's why I am saying, challenge her. If you are interested in basing opinions about Amma herself (aside from the organization and all the circus) on experience....then DO IT. Get through to her, get in her face, and ASK her about it, even if that means challenging her and pissing off all of the people around her...because Amma couldn't care less. Otherwise, opinions about Amma and her "abilities" (or however you would refer to certain things that occur around her)...they are all just hearsay. Whether pro-Amma or anti-Amma it is just hearsay.
If you are really interested, demand something from her. That's all I am saying. If not, both the criticism and the rabid-fanaticism is based on delusion, speculation and other people's ideas of who the hell she is. If you don't care enough to do that, fine. But if you are interested enough to do it, don't let fear stop you. You might learn something. Or nothing at all.
The criticism on certain aspects of the organization, the ridiculous publicity stunts, the over the top deification, the robotic newagespeak of her followers...all of that I agree with and thank god you actually talk about those things here.
Stuart said something magnificent when he said:
truth gets mixed with a ton of hearsay. The aspiring devotee reads books, hears lectures, and listens to mobs of true believers. He ends up repeating what he reads or hears like a parrot, but pretending that it's based on experience.
I'm all for basing things on experience tempered with a degree of critical thinking. That's why I think it would be interesting for a true skeptic to challenge Amma in that way. The rodeo around her tends to try and squash any inquiry like that, which is precisely why it would be great if more people did. Certainly, if you acted like a pompous jackass and caused a scene, they'd probably find a way to throw you out. But if you just went up there and asked an honest question...they would have no right to...and Amma would probably be pissed off about it if they did.
>>"Tell her to her face to show you who she is. What have you got to lose? A few hours waiting to go up there? Your head? "<<<
Maybe better to spend the same amount of time and energy to find out who YOU are.
Varahi Devi
adevotit said...Tell her to her face to show you who she is. What have you got to lose? A few hours waiting to go up there? Your head?
..................
I've had a lot of trouble lately what with my mule being laid up and all, so I can't go where Amma is and wait in line, so I'm gonna follow your advice from here in Dime Box..
Amma, I don't believe you are God in any way, shape, or form. I challenge you to prove me wrong. You have one week...
I'm already old, fat, bald and have lost many of my teeth. If Amma gets mad and starts to beat me up from the cosmic zone, I don't have much to loose. I will report back in one week on this matter!
Dear Jody,
I enjoy your blog. You said, about Ammachi:
Because I already know who she is. And I know she's not more of that than anyone else.
...well, that's nice. But how are you so sure you know? I don't know who or what Ammachi is. I do know lots of stuff I've read in books, and some experiences I've had, that all is One, blah blah blah. But that does not make a person all-seeing, and all knowing, as you seem to claim in this instance.
Why not just admit -- you don't know anything, just like the rest of the world? Those who claim to know the most, are usually the most limited anyhow.
Stuff comes and goes, gurus come and go, devotion comes and goes, knowledge comes and goes. I have not found one reliable bit or tidbit of anything in this world that I can look at and say "I know" about it. Sure, I know boiling water is hot, but how hot? Who knows? Could test it, but any device could be wrong. This applies, imo, to everything you can see in this world.
Our eyes and senses are unreliable. Our minds are unreliable. Our hearts are fickle and unreliable.
Maybe Ammachi is God. Maybe she is a lady social worker. Maybe she's something else.
How do you know for certain that you are not pushing people in just another type of fanatical direction? It appears that way to me.
Your anti-Guru Gurudom here is the same as any Gurudom.
As soon as we speak we are full of Sh*t. That's what I think. And that's also Sh*t totally.
But I love your blog. Lots of laughs!
Maybe better to spend the same amount of time and energy to find out who YOU are.
Which obviously nobody on this board has done.
Which obviously nobody on this board has done.
I'm quite sure you wouldn't know who has or hasn't if s/he slapped you right on the kisser.
I'm quite sure you wouldn't know who has or hasn't if s/he slapped you right on the kisser.
And neither would you.
I've given you far too much credit. The more I read your comments, the more you strike me as a pompous ass. You are just as pompous and delusional as the Amma-bots you criticize, only in a different way.
But then again, you are too delusional to ever understand that. So all of this banter is pointless.
You are the type of personality that is convinced it is right about everything. It's sickening.
And neither would you.
Er... didn't we just establish that you wouldn't know whether or not I know?
the more you strike me as a pompous ass
I'm a pompous ass pulling my opinions right out of my ass. Why the heck are you still here reading them?
all of this banter is pointless.
Yet here you are, bantering.
You are the type of personality that is convinced it is right about everything. It's sickening.
Would you like a bag to puke into?
"But I would like to personally see some of the money coming from the rich westerners going back to some of the needy westerners. But thats my take on it."
what a stupid comment, my dear anon....
First , one, does not have to pay to see Amma.
Second, when they ask for donations, they explain what those donations are for: INDIA. So everyone is free to donate or not. If you want donations for your country, u yourself, go and hug people, and become also an avatard...
Jody said...I'm a pompous ass pulling my opinions right out of my ass. Why the heck are you still here reading them?
.................
This is why I love my man, Jody, and know that he is a "high soul" as well as the asshole he admits he is! I bow to our barnyard feet!
>>"I've given you far too much credit. The more I read your comments, the more you strike me as a pompous ass. You are just as pompous and delusional as the Amma-bots you criticize, only in a different way.
But then again, you are too delusional to ever understand that. So all of this banter is pointless."<<
Hey, don't you get it? The whole "point" of this blog is poking air holes in the whole reeking guru scene.Sometimes it serves a real purpose; other times it's pointless. Most people feel feel that their "opinions" are the "truth", when you come right down to it and most people, expressing those opinions seem "pompous" to those who disagree wtih them. If you lie down with dogs, you can expect to hear alot of barking...lol!
Varahi Devi
Anon said:
You are just as pompous and delusional as the Amma-bots you criticize,..
...which goes on to prove that the same Brahman is the essence of us all including amma, ammabots, Jody, anon and freefall.
...only in a different way.
...and it is the fun part. Leela of the Brahman through which one appears as many.
Jody : You mean many devotees have been led to believe they receive "divinity" in a glance. Too bad there's no more divinity in a glance than in my dog's ass, no matter who is doing the glancing.
Anon: There is just no way to deny this.
Moi : There are plenty of ways to deny it just read through this site. However, there is
no way to actaully >prove< it.
Just a commentary on gurudom. We've got the Devine mothers, the Devine fathers, the frauds, and the FREAKY nutcases.
Deciding on a guru is a very personal decision that takes time. A guru is a person (yes a HUMAN being) who can help you find truth. The guru is a teacher of truth and that truth is but one word LOVE. Here is a nifty guide for guru shopping in the new age...
When meeting a guru for the first time, ask your self a simple question: Is the sum of their teachings "thy will be done" or "my will be done"?
If the answer to this question is "by my own will" and if I do all this stuff for this guru, then i will become enlightened" You've got yourself a fraud, nutcase or worse. RUN, DON'T WALK unless you REALLY like Jone's special cool-aid!
Someone posted this guide, here is my commentary on these criteria.
A true Guru don't gather masses.
A guru cannot be a guru if they don't share devine wisdom (love) with anyone.
A true Guru doesen't auto-proclaim himself or herself god.
This is THE major warning sign of a FAKE guru! Ask youself if they are proclaiming "I am the one true god" if so, again: RUN!!!! don't walk! Also ask yourself if they proclaim: "they are sent by god" If so, is their mission for the benifit of only THEIR devotees, or is it for all of humanity? If only "devotees", BE AFRAID, VERY AFRAD! More cool-aid anyone?
A true Guru doesen't sell and market his pictures.
Anyone can market whatever they want, including their own pictures, it's their GOD given right! If you get legal threats over personal pictures with a guru or meetings this could be a warning; not neccessarily of a bad guru, but that their organization has gotten too greedy or corrupted. USE CAUTION! (Anyone for $cientology??!!)
A true guru doesen't go around collecting money.
Charitable works NEED donations to survive, so a donation box or letter would not be an issue here. DO be VERY afraid if you have to "pay to go to the next level": RUN don't WALK if this is the case! (Anyone for $cientology??!!)
A true guru doesen't show any magic or miracles.
Miracles and magic are more common then people think nowadays. Have you ever been in a situation where you saved someone or your self due to an uncanny circumstance? That's called grace, it is after all a gift from god to have healing abilities or other psychic powers. Be AFRAID of gurus that target desprate people by showing off public "miracles" and ask large sums of money to "heal" people or do pointless magic tricks! Agin, RUN don't walk! However, if a guru does heal you with magic it would be nice to show your gratitude.
A true guru doesen't permit adoration from disciples.
Why not? Would you not adore someone who enlightened you? Would it be inapropriate to show gratitude?! Be wary of gurus that make large public displays of adoration, especially when dressed up as a god or goddess! Anyone want MORE cool-aid?
A true guru doesen't make publicity and doesen't permit disciples to do it either.
Without publicity or advertisement of any kind a guru cannot do any effective charitable works or even be able to share their message. Excessive publicity, especially about paranormal powers is a very big warning sign. USE CAUTION!
A true Guru doesnt permit organizations around their teachings.
Once a true guru's decipleship is out of control of the guru, it's doomed to be corrupted. Sad but true.
The traits of a TRUE guru are: Generosity, Humility, Honesty, Compassion, Wisdom, Love and Faith. The teaching is simply: Love God, and in so doing you shall be loved and love one another as god loves you.
Enough said
Amma pours a little quantity of the sandal paste that is ground and kept near her into the water and other items brought by the devotees for blessing. This a very common practise with Amma.
There is nothing wrong with Amma's face on the side of a bus in New Mexico. People, consider the large body of spiritual interest in that community. Who makes the rules of what is an ok banner and where it should be? Who gets to draw the line between self promotion and exposure? Amma seeks to reach out to everyone- rich and poor alike, so what better way to do this than with a mobile banner on public transportation? I think it's really clever. And if you call it self promotion, what is wrong with that? What, exactly, is being promoted here? Giving darshan for 24 hours a day? Working tirelessly to fight poverty, homelessness, violence and hopelessness? Moving from city to city, country to country, continent to continent, day after day and year after year? Do you really think that Amma has tenderly held and hugged over 24 million people within 36 years in order to achieve whatever it is you're so worried about? Do the math, this is impossibly hard work which comes of great self sacrifice. Let me ask you, who would be willing to do this? If it were you, what price would you ask in return? Would it be to return home to your poor village, to sleep humbly with the mosquitos? In the turmoil and great sorrow that exists in this world, Amma's gift is a great blessing and should be received with nothing less than love. But instead, people want to pick her apart over nothing. How disappointing. Instead of doing something about all these industries and other organisations that exist plainly before us and take great bleeding bites from humanity to satisfy their own greed - people choose to attack the very people working to bring aid to the suffering, the bleeding, the exploited.
To put it simply- if your so worried about whether or not a person is really HELPING... why don't you turn your suspicious, scrutinous eye to those who we KNOW are responsibly for grave troubles at home and abroad, and quit wasting precious energy throwing your weight around and squabbling over something that in the end, doesn't make a bit of difference to anybody. Have you ever felt strong, gentle arms hold you close to offer relief from despair? Please think twice before you put your opinion on what that is worth to so many with so little.
Do you really think that Amma has tenderly held and hugged over 24 million people within 36 years in order to achieve whatever it is you're so worried about?
No, she's done it to bring money into the coffers, some of which goes to support the racist policies of her friends in the RSS, VHP and BJP.
Interesting, you are still picking. You really think someone can have such continuous, close and intimate contact with a large portion of the world's population in an effort to bring harm to people? Have you ever really thought about how strange that sounds? I'm sorry, but get real!Propaganda can always be made to undermine anyone or anything. Words can always be used to create uncertainty. One million dollars were given to the U.S. for relief after hurricane Katrina. Now if the U.S. hadn't blown all their cash and focus on destruction in other places, maybe we would not have had this disaster to begin with. Consider that over one half million people have died because of our lovely little war going on in the east. Does that mean that the 1,000,000 dollars given to the U.S. was to support a country involved in terrible activities? Well it depends on how you look at it, as does evrything else. Amma's INTENTION, however, was to give aid to those who were SUFFERING. In the moments that matter, politics don't. The reality is it doesn't matter where or who they are, but that people are dying every day. Painful miserable deaths. People who would survive if you gave up your monthly satellite TV bill and sent the money their way. But since most people would rather buy a pretty ring than give up their T.V., this is where alot of the money for aid must come from. Amma is responsible for building free homes - thousands of them - to help people recover from the tsunami. Within them live fishermen and children to whom she is providing education to see them prosper in the future, not war mongerers. You don't have to circle like a vulture to find evil to fight. Go vegetarian. Shop local and organic. Re-use your plastic bags. Oh, and ride the Amma bus! And if you already do these things, do more. There are two kinds of people in the world - those that lift others up and those that try to drag others down. Focus on good things and good things will come. If you start helping other people, rather than trying to shoot people down, you are likely to find out what it really is that drives Amma to do what she does. And if you can't get your head around that, then maybe you could at least keep your discouragements to yourself and stop attempting to cast doubt among the unfortunate people who are as unsure of these things as you seem to be. As for me, I'm not the least bit interested in your quagmire of propaganda, which can easily be built around anyone to serve the interests of anyone else. When it comes down to it, only the truth remains.
Seems I'm having trouble posting this one... I wonder if that is due to "divine intervention"...
You really think someone can have such continuous, close and intimate contact with a large portion of the world's population in an effort to bring harm to people?
No. I think that someone can play a space-mommy for that portion of the world's population who feel a need for such in their lives, all at the expense of what she's supposed to be actually spreading, which is self-realization rather than the fulfillment of the infantile needs of her devotees.
Amma's INTENTION, however, was to give aid to those who were SUFFERING.
She's not all bad, although I can imagine her working under the principle that you've got to give to get. By advertising her contributions to Katrina, she pushes all the right buttons on her U.S. tour, getting even more money, some of which possibly supports racist activities in India.
As for me, I'm not the least bit interested in your quagmire of propaganda
You sure have a funny way of expressing your disinterest.
Seems I'm having trouble posting this one... I wonder if that is due to "divine intervention"...
Don't worry, you can post as much of your lame spin as you'd like here.
Let's lay out some facts and see how you spin them:
1. Amma is the darling of the Hindu nationalist right, which is a supremacist political movement whose extents mirror the KKK in the States.
2. Members of Amma's ashram in New Delhi organized an attack against local residents using canes and rebar as weapons. Also included was one ashramite's threat to falsely accuse some of the residents of rape.
3. Amma's organization maintains that she is a living deity, the veritable Goddess of the Universe, resorting to miracle mongering in support of this commercially lucrative contention.
Post a Comment
<< Home