Tuesday, May 22, 2007

Here She Comes: The Big Mamma

File under: Amma All-Over-The-Planet

Astral milk junkies are rejoicing all over the States in anticipation of their big-time space mommy's visit, where all their infantile spiritual needs will be met at that traveling circus of occluding bullshit about self-realization known as an Ammachi satsang.

Arrive a broken being beat down by the troubles of life, leave with an internally projected sense of peace and happiness and a head full of superstitious nonsense about your own nondual truth.

Gee! Thanks, Mamma Amma, for extending everyone's delusion for another whole year. You may not be doing a damn thing for anyone's self-realization, but you sure know how to keep 'em coming back for yet another empty hug.

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38 Comments:

At 5/22/2007 3:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All the gurus you pick on I like for the most part. Amma is awesome, as is Sri Sri.

Amma is a genuine Saint. WHo can do what AMma does, surely not the average person. She is so selfless and pure.

Name any one thing she has done that is not pure. The biggest complaint you have against her is that she jabbers a lot during hugging. What is so wrong with that?

She is pure Divinity being expressed in human form.

 
At 5/22/2007 3:08 PM, Blogger jody said...

She is pure Divinity being expressed in human form.

No, she is a cute and rotund Indian lady who everyone imagines to be more divine than they are.

 
At 5/22/2007 5:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"She is pure Divinity being expressed in human form."

There is no such thing!

 
At 5/22/2007 6:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a firm believer in "If you spot it, you got it." If her devotees see Divinity in Amma, how could they recognize that Divinity if it's not a projection of their own wonderful qualities? So they're not wrong about Amma exactly...they're just dismissing themselves in the process, which isn't healthy.

Same for the opposite projection, I hate to admit... :) But please don't stop, Jody. It's too much fun.

 
At 5/22/2007 6:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>>>"She is pure Divinity being expressed in human form."<<

Uh! I thought we ALL were "pure Divinnity being expressed in human form". Isn't that the point of the whole thing...you know..."Shiva desires to express himself and through his Shakti, he manifests the world" (and not only the "good" parts...ALL of it) .. in other words, everything is an expression of what human beings call "pure Divinity" or "god". This constant need to separate and make one human being "higher" and another "lower" (and then the "lower" worships the "higher") is a misreading of the very tradition that gave birth to Ammachi and others like her.
Varahi D.

 
At 5/22/2007 6:14 PM, Blogger jody said...

I'm a firm believer in "If you spot it, you got it."

Or, if you put it there, it came from somewhere.

So they're not wrong about Amma exactly...they're just dismissing themselves in the process, which isn't healthy.

Hence the whole reason this blog exists.

But please don't stop, Jody.

I've no intention of stopping. There is too much abject ignorance being presented as spiritual wisdom to allow me to rest.

 
At 5/22/2007 6:14 PM, Blogger jody said...

This constant need to separate and make one human being "higher" and another "lower" (and then the "lower" worships the "higher") is a misreading of the very tradition that gave birth to Ammachi and others like her.

You sir, are my hero for the day!

 
At 5/22/2007 10:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I for one am glad Big Mamma is coming back to town. It is the best show in town.

I personally love the astral milk and can't get enough of it. Call me silly or occluded or whatever, but I get a lot out of the milk. It is so nourishing and wholesome.

You guys think that we are all the same, and all Divinity, but let me tell you, the Hugging Saint is way beyond all of us. She is no ordinary Saint, but is the Divine Mother in Human Form.

Just being in her presence opens my Heart and I feel so much love and compassion.

Nobody else has opened my Heart like being in her Presence.

So I admit it, I am a astral milk junkie and anticipating her visit and hug.

And she is bringing me closer to realization. Every time I see her, I am closer to truth, to realization. Her purity and love rubs off on me. She is no fake like the Kalki you talk about or the Sri Sri dude. She is a Saint and is recognized as one by all other enlightened beings.

Are you planning on seeing her again Jody when she comes to your area? I know you wrote about your visit to her in the past. Or are you beyond the hugs? Everyone including a Vedantin like yourself could use a loving hug.

 
At 5/22/2007 10:31 PM, Blogger jody said...

Nobody else has opened my Heart like being in her Presence.

You mean, she was the first one that held your projection.

Every time I see her, I am closer to truth, to realization.

The fact that you believe she brings you closer only moves you that much further away. This is the sin of Ammachi, that she has people believing that realization comes by way of exposure to a guru, in the same way one picks up a stink when they've been in a stinky room.

That's all you are really "getting" from Amma, a good dose of her stinky perfume. Everything else you are bringing yourself.

Or are you beyond the hugs?

My Mother is right here with me, burning deep in my heart, every second of every day. There is absolutely no need to go get sand at the beach when I have a pot of gold right here at hand.

 
At 5/22/2007 10:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am telling you, I am getting something from Ammachi. When she chants her bhajans, my heart opens. I am not trying to do anything, it just happens. I also spontaneously feel waves of bliss and tears come. Again, I am not doing anything to make it happen, it just happens on its own because of her presence and power and love.

I can just sit and watch her hug people for hours and feel the most incredible love and compassion. She is stimulating it in me. On my own, I cannot generate this compassion.

I even watched a trailer to her Darshan movie, and it brings goosebumps to me and tears to my eyes. I feel such love when I am in her presence or even watching a short clip of her.

Am I making all of this up? What is going on? I think it is because of her and you are saying something different. I just find it hard to accept that she is not causing some of this.

 
At 5/22/2007 10:55 PM, Blogger jody said...

I just find it hard to accept that she is not causing some of this.

Maybe because you can't accept the truth that you are every bit as divine as Amma is. Every single bit as much as she.

 
At 5/22/2007 11:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jody said: "Maybe because you can't accept the truth that you are every bit as divine as Amma is. Every single bit as much as she."

I would like to believe this. But everytime I ever started to believe I was equal with Amma or any Guru or Avatar others told me I wasn't and that they are at a higher level than us normal human beings.

Nobody will believe you if you go around and feel you are just as awakened, divine, realized, enlightened as one like Amma.

I have talked to many spiritual seekers at Ammas gatherings, including TM people, and they all insist that Amma is special and unique and has way more compassion and love than any of us.

They put her up on a pedestal and give many reasons why she is different than us. They talk about her past and how she is an Avatar and all of the miracles.

I agree that we are all Divine, all part of God, but people like Amma just seem like they are more Divine, more loving, more awake than the rest of us.

If I could, I would spend every waking minute being in Ammas presence. I can't think of a more pure Saint/Guru on the planet right now.

I just can't accept what you are saying, that we are equal. It just can't be. And I know I am not deluded or drinking the cool-aid. I am a very serious spiritual seeker who has seen many gurus.

The bottom line for me is that Ammas aura or being or presence helps to awaken me. I just cannot deny it.

 
At 5/23/2007 7:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

u anon, just dont get the point.
U see, u just want that milk from the cow, and this is what u get.
The moment you will realize how stupid does that milk makes you, u will walk a step further on the path of wisdom.
For now, u just have so many funny ideas about what is it to Live Enlightenment. And those ideas are just clouds on the wisdom that lies within you.
I see no trace of avataric love in that woman. I see more love in you, than in her. She is just a trance-show-woman.

I was years ago twice at her presence. At the time, I thought as you do,that she was a godwoman. And I felt so good in that stadium....
The truth, I felt good because of my own disposition and openess, and that of the thousand people at the same openned disposition.

There is nothing more special in her than in you. She just have found a successful way of expression: hugging thousands people (even without any love intention)and helping the poors in India.
You now have to find the way of leading a life that gives you satisfaction, and I am sur you will find it, and then will laugh about Big Mamma and the blind but nice fellows that need hugs from her to feel loved.
I am sure you can make it!

 
At 5/23/2007 8:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"I would like to believe this. But everytime I ever started to believe I was equal with Amma or any Guru or Avatar others told me I wasn't and that they are at a higher level than us normal human beings."

Nobody will believe you if you go around and feel you are just as awakened, divine, realized, enlightened as one like Amma.<<"

My dear friend,
Here is part of the problem:what other people think, what other people say, what other people would have you believe. Think, for instance, about Amma herself. If SHE had listened to what "other people" told her about herself, she would still be mucking out latrines and wandering around in the swamps as everyone called her "crazy". It seems she chose to listen to another voice altogether.

"I have talked to many spiritual seekers at Ammas gatherings, including TM people, and they all insist that Amma is special and unique and has way more compassion and love than any of us."

this is simply stupid! she doesn't have "way more anything at all". She has simply chosen to focus on the attributes of "love and compassion" rather than fear and its fallout. Alot of energy is freed up when you stop focusing on what you don't give a damn about. We ALL have the potential to become our own "Amma"...it's not some exclusive club!

.

"I agree that we are all Divine, all part of God, but people like Amma just seem like they are more Divine, more loving, more awake than the rest of us."

We ALL have the capacity to wake up! But if we constantly focus our attention on OTHER PEOPLE: their opinions, their thoughts, their personalities and egos, it will never happen! How can someone be "MORE" of what we are all made of? it makes NO sense! All that has happened is that this particular "incarnation of divine consciousness" (which we ALL are...every sentient being) has CHOSEN to WAKE UP! And what manifests, in her case, is a "hugging saint" and, in the case of another, a solitary street sweeper unknown to anyone but her family and, in the case of
another, a popular teacher and, in the case of another, a tibetan monk and on and on and on....the possibilities are endless!


"I just can't accept what you are saying, that we are equal. It just can't be. And I know I am not deluded or drinking the cool-aid. I am a very serious spiritual seeker who has seen many gurus."

So if you can't accept the fact that "you" (underneath the personality and karmic "stuff") are as worthy and potentially "awake" as Ammachi, then it's never going to happen for you and you will spend the rest of your life sitting at the feet of whatever "saint" is making the circuit.When Amma disappoints (as she inevitably will) then you will simply move on to another "saint".
You sound sincere. Why not read Ramana's words and take them to heart?
with best wishes to you,
Varahi DEVI (not a guy, Jody)

 
At 5/23/2007 11:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you fellow readers for your responses. I have been meditating over this and wanted to express my thoughts even further, as to what came to me.

The differences I perceive between me and Amma, is the differences on the absolute and relative levels. On the Absolute level, me and Amma are exactly the same, the same Divinity, but on the relative level, she is more loving and compassionate and awake. This cannot be denied.

So it is depending on which level we are talking about. When people say we are the same, they are speaking on the absolute level. But on the relative level, there are huge differences.

Was not Ramakrishna, different than his disciples. Was not he more an Avatar than even Vivekananda and the other disciples. No matter how much we want to say that they were all equal to Ramakrishna, from what I read, he seemed special and called himself an Avatar and they all looked up to him, and as far as I know none compared themselves with him or looked on him as equals.

And the same with Ramana Maharshi. Some might go to his ashram and feel they were enlightened or just as free as Ramana, but once there in his presence, they realized they weren't and some cried and some left despondent.

So maybe I am missing something, but this is what I feel at the moment. Thank you readers for your input and still want to hear more.

 
At 5/23/2007 12:48 PM, Blogger jody said...

The differences I perceive between me and Amma, is the differences on the absolute and relative levels.

There is NO difference between the relative and the absolute, according to Vedanta.

on the relative level, she is more loving and compassionate and awake. This cannot be denied.

So what? She's still just some lady who plays at being God for gullible people.

But on the relative level, there are huge differences.

There is NO difference between the absolute and relative with regards to Brahman. In other words, Brahman knows no difference between you and Amma. And since you are Brahman, you are identical to her insofar as your divinity is concerned. To plague yourself with perceived differences is counterproductive to coming to spiritual truth, in my opinion. For instance, your completely erroneous idea that every time you get close to Amma, you get closer to realization. Having this idea is KEEPING you from being realized, not helping you toward it.

Was not Ramakrishna, different than his disciples.

Not any more different than any of us are from each other.

Was not he more an Avatar than even Vivekananda and the other disciples.

Only according to the corrupt hagiographies about him.

No matter how much we want to say that they were all equal to Ramakrishna, from what I read, he seemed special and called himself an Avatar and they all looked up to him, and as far as I know none compared themselves with him or looked on him as equals.

That's a cultural thing, one of the many banes of Hindu thought.

And the same with Ramana Maharshi. Some might go to his ashram and feel they were enlightened or just as free as Ramana, but once there in his presence, they realized they weren't and some cried and some left despondent.

We have no idea what they were thinking. That's just your occlusion-bound speculation.

So maybe I am missing something, but this is what I feel at the moment. Thank you readers for your input and still want to hear more.

You are missing the essential point. All are divine, equally. The relative differences are completely and utterly irrelevant to this truth. So, Amma sitting on her dais acting holy is just an act. She has not one speck more of anything than you do, right now, where you sit reading these words. Any holiness you detect in Amma, you put there yourself from your own stash.

 
At 5/23/2007 1:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For me it seems that u anon, are suffering because you dont accept your uniqueness. Therefor you think you can get the love you miss in people like Amma.
If this is what you want, ok,... u might get this impression when u visit the Mamma. This is ok as long as you don't think that she is more divine than u are.
The whole scenario in which this woman puts herself into,... is a spiritual circus. And it wont lead you to selfrealization by itself.
But hey guys, who knows,... the hit of awakening can get you anywhere, any moment, and who knows if it can happen in a circus setting???
Just don't fall into the illussion that big Mamma is the divine mother more than you are.
She just helps the poor and hug people, and have no fear of proclamming herself as an avatar.

 
At 5/23/2007 1:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The differences I perceive between me and Amma, is the differences on the absolute and relative levels."

The differences between You and Amma, is that you play a personality full of expectations, and little confidence on yourself and she plays a self engrandized godmamma role.

For me, you show more love than her.

In this very moment, here while reading this blog, you can access the realm of bliss ad extasy that is your true being.It is within you, and only thing you shall do is shift the focus of your attention.

 
At 5/23/2007 1:42 PM, Blogger jody said...

It is within you, and only thing you shall do is shift the focus of your attention.

While ignoring those ideas in your head that it's something big, monumental and grandiose. The reason you don't see it is because you expect it to be something it's not. Forget about Amma and what you believe about her. Know the truth exists in you right now as much as it does in anyone, anytime in history.

 
At 5/23/2007 5:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The bottom line Jody, is that you think Amma is doing more harm than good with her tours. With her empty hugs. She is spreading occluding beliefs rather than truth. Is this a good way of summing up Amma?

 
At 5/23/2007 5:17 PM, Blogger jody said...

you think Amma is doing more harm than good with her tours.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but almost.

I think that Amma is a placebo which helps folks to marshal their own inner forces for psychological repair. In this way she is doing a lot of good. The downside is that folks believe it's by the power of Amma that the healing occurs. This is bad for two reasons. One, it's just not true, and two, it leaves people with the impression that self-realization comes with magic healing powers. That's where the occlusion arises.

I'm of two minds regarding Amma. I don't want to take folks' solace away from them, but that solace comes with head-numbing, clarity-occluding ideas about self-realization, all of which are wrong, as is any idea about the Self.

If I had my way, I'd get a one-on-one with Amma. Just her and I – screw her swamis. In that meeting I would explain the concept of occlusion. I think she'd be able to put two and two together at that point. Whether or not she'd be inclined to do anything about it is another issue. Her entire business model is built upon the idea that she is God. It would be like pulling the plug on the money-making machine for her to turn her back on her devi act.

 
At 5/23/2007 9:45 PM, Blogger Stuart said...

> I am telling you, I am getting
> something from Ammachi.

Whatever you see, hear, feel etc, in darshan or elsewhere, that's your experience. To say it's "from Ammachi" is just an idea. You don't know where it's from.

> I also spontaneously feel waves
> of bliss and tears come. Again,
> I am not doing anything to make
> it happen, it just happens on
> its own because of her presence
> and power and love.

Again, you don't know what causes these good feeling you get. If you feel bliss, for instance, why not just feel bliss? Why add thinking to it ("it's because of her presence" yada yada)?

Here's what I think. For lots of people, feeling bliss isn't enough. They want to cling to the bliss, to get it over and over in the future. They try to figure out where the bliss is coming from, as a way of scheming to get more of it. This may be natural... but whenever you try to get something for yourself, even if it's just clinging to these good feelings, it leads to suffering.

> I can just sit and watch her hug
> people for hours and feel the
> most incredible love and
> compassion. She is stimulating
> it in me.

"Love and compassion" means helping other people. It's not just a good inner feeling to hold onto.

Also, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Say you have $100 in your pocket. The important thing is to decide how to spend it. That decision is the same, regardless of where the money came from.

So if you've got feelings of love and compassion, don't waste time thinking about where it came from. Just use it to help other beings. And then if at other times you feel sadness and misery, you can also use *that* to help others.

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm

 
At 5/24/2007 12:50 AM, Anonymous repo said...

Scenario 1: Orphan thinks his parents are alive and will come back one day, and the presents he gets for Christmas are from his parents and not from the orphanage folks. He dies with this illusion.
Scenario 2: Well-meaning Jody informs orphan that they are occluding the truth, parents are dead, wake up and smell the coffee, kid!

I would prefer scenario 1.

 
At 5/24/2007 7:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i would prefer scenario 2
wouldn't waist my precious life thinking how to find my inexistant parents.
And would use my life in Living Truth.

 
At 5/24/2007 8:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"Scenario 1: Orphan thinks his parents are alive and will come back one day, and the presents he gets for Christmas are from his parents and not from the orphanage folks. He dies with this illusion.
Scenario 2: Well-meaning Jody informs orphan that they are occluding the truth, parents are dead, wake up and smell the coffee, kid!

I would prefer scenario 1. "<<

Wow! REALLY??!!! You'd rather die in a state of delusion than wake up! Well, it seems like you've got alot of company.
Varahi Devi

 
At 5/24/2007 1:04 PM, Blogger Stuart said...

repo said...
> I would prefer scenario 1.

I don't see how your words are in harmony with your actions. If you really prefer pleasant illusion over disturbing truths, wouldn't you avoid Guruphiliac.com altogether?

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm

 
At 5/24/2007 6:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jody, are you denying that Amma is an extremely compassionate being?

How could someone who sits hugging screaming, crying, sweating, drooling strangers for hours on end without taking a break...sometimes for 12 hours...how can you not admit that there is something admirable and beautiful about that?

The bones in Amma's neck are deteriorating from hugging people all of these years, she suffers an extreme amount of physical pain...watch her face during darshan at times, the suffering and anguish of her physical body can be seen very clearly in her facial expressions from time to time. And you won't hear about any of that in the media. She exemplifies selflessness.

While I understand that you do not fancy the image of her as a God-woman, and I understand what you are saying about devotees exhibiting cult-like behavior...I do not understand how you can be so unkind to Amma herself. She offers consolation to people who are hurting and I don't understand what is so wrong about that in your eyes. Please explain.

 
At 5/24/2007 7:06 PM, Blogger jody said...

Jody, are you denying that Amma is an extremely compassionate being?

No. But that doesn't mean the compassion isn't a part of the business plan.

How could someone who sits hugging screaming, crying, sweating, drooling strangers for hours on end without taking a break...sometimes for 12 hours...how can you not admit that there is something admirable and beautiful about that?

There is. But the nonsense about self-realization that gets absorbed by folks due to its association with her image kinda undoes a lot of that.

The bones in Amma's neck are deteriorating from hugging people all of these years, she suffers an extreme amount of physical pain...watch her face during darshan at times, the suffering and anguish of her physical body can be seen very clearly in her facial expressions from time to time. And you won't hear about any of that in the media. She exemplifies selflessness.

Opinion noted. Like I said, if she didn't hug, her org would find itself without its major revenue stream. So as extraordinary as her practice may seem, it's as practical as much as compassionate.

While I understand that you do not fancy the image of her as a God-woman, and I understand what you are saying about devotees exhibiting cult-like behavior...I do not understand how you can be so unkind to Amma herself.

Anyone who presents themselves as God more than anyone else, or anyone who allows themselves to be presented as such [read: Amma] deserves to be ridiculed for it, regardless of how much compassionate hugging they are doing, in my opinion.

She offers consolation to people who are hurting and I don't understand what is so wrong about that in your eyes. Please explain.

Folks see Amma as the model of self-realization. This creates a series of ridiculous, superstition-laden expectations about self-realization. Folks assume that self-realization will make them like Amma, complete with the God-like powers they imagine she has.

It doesn't. Self-realization adds nothing to a life outside of an ongoing revelation about one's true nature. It's not getting raised to a higher level, it's seeing that you've never been anywhere else than on that level, as there is only one level anytime, anyway.

The problem with expectations about self-realization is that they can OCCLUDE one's coming to see their own truth. If you believe self-realization will make you all-powerful, and you never become all-powerful, how are you going to recognize your own truth outside of these obnoxious ideas of power?

Imagine the Self as a moth sitting on a tree trunk. The moth's color patterning is such good camouflage that you just can't see it no matter how much and how hard you look. Now what if you had learned that the little moth is supposed to be a magnificent, rainbow-colored, make-everything-alright-in-an-instant butterfly. You'll never see that butterfly because it simply does not exist. You'll be waiting for a butterfly that will never arrive.

Meanwhile, the humble little moth continues to sit on its tree. Eventually, it decides to move, and thus you can finally see it. But since you've been conditioned to expect an extravagant butterfly, you'll miss the real truth as the humble little moth that's been with you the whole time.

Amma, by virtue of what folks believe about her – all well-encouraged by her org, by the way – has got everyone expecting huge, multi-colored butterflies. Thus, they are all going to miss their tiny little moths when they move.

That is occlusion, and that is my problem with Ammachi and any other guru who claims to have magic powers because they are divine, or allows others around them to make these ridiculous, yet tragically ubiquitous claims, for them.

 
At 5/24/2007 11:06 PM, Anonymous repo said...

repo said...
> I would prefer scenario 1.

And Stuart responded...
I don't see how your words are in harmony with your actions. If you really prefer pleasant illusion over disturbing truths, wouldn't you avoid Guruphiliac.com altogether?

Amma let loose the demon of truth upon me, and I mourn for the loss of illusion, because I cannot cram the truth back into its bottle.

And to Varahi Devi: I would rather be deluded than wake up, yes. I would rather die than wake up. But best of all, I would rather have love than any of the above. It is the only thing I found that is worth living for. And no Stuart, for me love is not at its core about helping 'others'; at least, that is a side-effect perhaps, but no more.

 
At 5/25/2007 1:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

who the hell sees Love in an Amma's Hug TM??????

In a 2 secconds automatic hug, where she doesn't even look at your soul, through your eyes, and where she allows her closest to roughly manipulate your sensitive body, in order so Amma can hug the next one body, without any seccond delay.....?????

How needy are these people, to even think that this unveils Truth?

Just because she stands for hours doing as if she hugs people, and do some thousands of them, and then she play the fool for a bit, and scream a bit, then she is a Godwoman????????

Some people develop extraordinary capacities, and that doesn't make them more god than you. Like I am always be bad at sports, and I always see as the most incredible gift, when I watch gymnasts do their job....
You see... is some hability someone develops, inorder to get something, being a Gold medal in the Olympics, or a God role in the face of ignorance.

You guys open your eyes, and be alert, so you can see your own moth, as Jody very illustrative explained. And ask for good guidance so the real master, the real guru can show to you.

 
At 5/25/2007 7:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"Amma, by virtue of what folks believe about her – all well-encouraged by her org, by the way – has got everyone expecting huge, multi-colored butterflies. Thus, they are all going to miss their tiny little moths when they move."<<
This is very true! It's not that Amma is "bad" or lacking in compassion. That's not the point. The point is that anyone who directs the attention AWAY from the clarity of the present moment by appearing to promise something in the future (spiritually speaking) is not, in the long run, doing people a big favor. You can be sitting, mooning over Amma 20 years later (as so many of her devotees have done) and be NO closer to any kind of clarity and truth. You can be caught up in "chasing the shakti" 30 or 40 years later (as so many muktananda devotees have been) and still be the same old egotistical shit you always were. It's all a kind of enjoyable fantastic pretense and, basically, a distraction for the devotee...an "entertainment" that has little to do with realization.
And to repo, who would rather "die" than "wake up". If you wake up, you WILL die...and what a huge relief it is. Underneath the crap is the LOVE that, as they say, "passeth all understanding".
Varahi devi

 
At 5/25/2007 8:05 AM, Anonymous repo said...

And to repo, who would rather "die" than "wake up". If you wake up, you WILL die...and what a huge relief it is. Underneath the crap is the LOVE that, as they say, "passeth all understanding".
Varahi devi


What I understand from what you are saying in an unnecessarily roundabout (and occluding [TM Jody]) way is that waking up is not possible. Perhaps, perhaps not.

And your second statement makes even less sense, since if love stays under all that crap, it doesn't do me any good, does it? I don't want to understand it, but I should be able to experience it. If a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? It is the typical high-sounding gobbledegook peddled by everyone, including in spiritual writings.

 
At 5/25/2007 12:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"What I understand from what you are saying in an unnecessarily roundabout (and occluding [TM Jody]) way is that waking up is not possible. Perhaps, perhaps not."<<

Uh, I'm saying exactly the opposite! I'm saying in those moments of waking up, what "you" experience is a very different sense of just about everything, including who or what "you' are.
"And your second statement makes even less sense, since if love stays under all that crap, it doesn't do me any good, does it?"

Egad! to me THIS makes, as you say, "even less sense"..and, again, I was saying just the opposite. when that sense of grabbing and grasping at it falls off, it's just there and has been right along.



"I don't want to understand it, but I should be able to experience it. If a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"
GeeZ! now you have hit on one of my pet peeves....if a tree falls in the forest and a human being isn't around to hear it, does it make a sound? or does it take a big fat human ego to "corroborate" what goes on all the time??? "oh yes! the tree fell down; oh yes! it made a big sound". "Oh, we weren't there to witness it, so it must not have happened". Who knows what goes on "behind the scenes". WE are only the centers of our own miniscule universes. Sometimes it's possible to get a glimpse of what things are like when you don't cling so tightly to that. Things are there..they don't have to be grabbed at.

"It is the typical high-sounding gobbledegook peddled by everyone, including in spiritual writings."
Well, what the hey! I guess I should be flattered that you think it's "high sounding". I don't live on the West Coast with all the satsang folks....so I'm not really peddling anything at all...just observing from my own experience.

Varahi D.

 
At 5/28/2007 7:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Varahi D. said "...if a tree falls in the forest and a human being isn't around to hear it, does it make a sound? or does it take a big fat human ego to "corroborate" what goes on all the time?"

Ramana Maharishi said that when a human being is asleep, the entire universe ceases to exist. Considering how much pain Ammachi is in from hugging people, the compassionate thing would be to stay away from her. I also believe that she is a good woman trying to do good in the world but why make yourself God over that?

 
At 5/28/2007 12:47 PM, Blogger Stuart said...

> And no Stuart, for me love is
> not at its core about
> helping 'others'

Generally when people use the word "love," they *are* talking about helping others, doing what's best for those they love, not just themselves.

If you take away "for you" from "love," what's left? My impression is that you're using the word "love" to mean clinging to your own good feelings. Is there anything more to it?

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/socalled.htm

 
At 5/28/2007 2:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jody wrote:
"I think that Amma is a placebo which helps folks to marshal their own inner forces for psychological repair. In this way she is doing a lot of good. The downside is that folks believe it's by the power of Amma that the healing occurs. This is bad for two reasons. One, it's just not true, and two, it leaves people with the impression that self-realization comes with magic healing powers. That's where the occlusion arises".

There is a third way in which this belief in Amma exacts a devastating cost. It further alienates people from their own inborn resources of love, which most of us have long experienced as diminished and insufficient (otherwise why go to Ammachi?) and about which we've succumbed to a lot of half-baked theories as to why that's the case. The blissful experiences in Amma's presence will then only ratify and reinforce the belief that one is indeed so benighted and deficient that only a miracle, grace or divine incarnation can deliver the lost or longed-for love. This is not true but we are deeply conditioned to believe in this particular lie, in this scarcity - and thus we hardly notice falling prey to all its logical sociopolitical consequences, nor notice how it entrenches even more deeply the disenfranchisement from our own divine resources.

 
At 10/27/2007 9:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paramahansa Yogananda once said, "All souls are equal, the only difference between you and me is I made the effort."

But the attunement of the particular mind-body complex with the infinite Bliss of the Soul varies from person to person, and people are attracted to Amma because she has more than average.

Sri Ramakrishna said that the Prema-bhaki he experienced was 10 million times greater than sex and human love. Ammachi also mentions this, but says that only one devotee in a million can experience that, as it takes time for the body-mind complex to handle that.

 
At 10/28/2007 12:33 AM, Blogger jody said...

people are attracted to Amma because she has more than average.

People are attracted to Amma because they believe she is God and they all want something from God.

only one devotee in a million can experience that

Anyone experiencing bliss is a mere individual and not the Self, because to the Self, any individual having any experience, no matter how blissful, simply does not exist.

 

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