Friday, January 04, 2008

New Year's Nonsense

File under: Gurubusting

Reading this makes us weep for the state of Truth in India (and America, Pakistan and everywhere else).

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26 Comments:

At 1/05/2008 6:05 AM, Anonymous freefall said...

I share your concern. However I believe that we humans (oops! We Brahman)will continue to believe in miracles of Shirdi Baba or a virgin's son or a camel herder for a long time to come.

 
At 1/05/2008 10:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Listen! I'm just going to keep repeating my mantra until I get that siddhi that they say Nityananda had...manifesting dollars from my dhoti! Beats working at MacDonalds. lol!

get real (get rich)

 
At 1/05/2008 11:58 AM, Blogger yomamma said...

well you will be crying a long time! because what is India without miracles? In my mind most miracles are incidents that have been observed and elaborated on over the years,until they just have their own momentum. It's a big tradition in India though, I don't know what it means, but there's something to be said for dead saints, at least they can't get into worldly mischief anymore. and they serve as harmless foci for yearning hearts.
the part in the article about understanding sai baba, where it tells the parable of the horse is actually pretty good, a good useful metaphorical teaching.but again i draw the line at giving all your dough to a Guru, that sounds a little dicy.

 
At 1/06/2008 2:38 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Spare yourself needless worries Jody.
Because of your non belief in Sree Narasimha , Rama and Krishna they stand " impeached ".

I can see a hiranyakasipu lurking inside you ;))

 
At 1/06/2008 7:43 AM, Blogger gregory said...

the addiction to the disease of rationality has cost us something human in our literal linear western world...

imagine your aunt mary, the dorky one, just happens to go into trance a couple of times a year and tells you things about yourself, or your near future, that are true... something would open in you towards dorky aunt mary and the possibilities or a larger reality...

here, several times a year, temple functions get people going and all sorts of average village women fall into trance, dance wildly, and say stuff that often has meaning and import...

so the belief in the miraculous is never far away from everyone's and anyone's life, no farther away thn dorky aunt mary...

siddhis, powers, ok, we don't believe in them, or when we see them in front of our eyes every year for 35 years he stood in the fire, we shut something off in the name of rational wisdom... but i think it is our loss...

the addiction to being right can sometimes be a problem...

i came here to day to give jody a link, someone saying what he is saying about 1500 years ago...

chi-tasang

ok, enjoy, gregory

 
At 1/06/2008 12:44 PM, Blogger Stuart said...

During the couple of years I was in India, I recall being in this group of people discussing Shirdi Sai Baba. One of them brought up a miracle story. It was something like... someone had seen Sai Baba regurgitate all his internal organs, then wash them in a basin, and then swallow them back.

Everyone in the group nodded reverently at how magically powerful Sai's purity was. I think this was a key event that got me thinking, "Sweet Jesus, I gotta get back to America. I belong in a place where people have bullshit detectors, and won't blindly accept any sort of nonsense that sounds nice."

When we're children, we're comforted by sweet fairy tales. As adults, it's sometimes more interesting to put away childish things.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

 
At 1/06/2008 10:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read Arthur Osborne's " The Incredible Sai Baba " to know the facts.
Incidentally, contrary to claims puttaparthi is not His reincarnation.
Aside that why this hankering for miracles among Indians? Someone said:
" The entire Nature around us is nothing short of a miracle. Whereas picayune minds want plants and trees to talk and give discourses and I, a human being to start sprouting flowers, fruits and grains..."

 
At 1/07/2008 3:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ Gregory

Where are you now Greg ? Which 'hole in the wall' net cafe you are punching keys from?

koregoan ?
Put apart I ?
T'malai ?

I get this feeling you are doing almost fine but not exactly. Usually I dont read all the comments but a select few. Your comments on the 'feel good' devotees was real cool. I share similar opinions at times.

 
At 1/07/2008 6:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jody,

Shirdi Sai has been gone awhile, I think. But why is it so hard to believe that he had siddhis and "performed" miracles? If it gives simple people faith when they see miracles, and then they go on to lead better lives, doing less harm, and perhaps even becoming receptive to hearing some kind of deeper Truth, then what is the harm?

Until you have experienced miracles at the hands of the Siddhas of India (or elsewhere, although I haven't met any elsewhere) you really cannot judge or comment.

Example: Agonizing pain in the body that has been nearly constant, or at least noticeable daily, for more than 5 years. Doctors tell you "have surgery, but no guarantees we will be able to really fix it" (backs are like that). Siddha sees me and says "you have back pain". Yeah, no kidding, dude. Walking out of the room, I feel a sudden relief and then total cessation of this pain. Siddha says, over my shoulder, "now your body is perfectly alright". And he was quite right. He is my Guru.

Now, you can poo-poo this all you like. But it's a fact, and a dramatic one. Never expected it, never asked for it. But did it happen? Yes sir! This, for a mere suffering human like myself, is a paca miracle. People can go on forever about how it's not true, but nobody else, not any doctor, could help me.

There are many such Siddhas in India. Does it make them enlightened? No. Are some of them enlightened? Probably.

Why should you weep that Shirdi Sai Baba cured people and gave them miracles and signs? Do you cry about Jesus too?

Truth, as you seem to have it isolated it in your world, apparently includes no physical body that will distract one until they scream with pain. But me? I gotta body, dude, and if my Guru can just look at me and make me better, why should I doubt that? If, in addition to that "fix", he can also point me in the direction of the Truth you speak of, then what's the problem?

I think you have gone too far in some direction that is unrealistic: that people will even care about Truth if they are a) hungry (hence the feeding miracles) b) in pain (hence the curing miracles) c) miserably unhappy (hence the 'upliftment' miracles). The fact is that people are just human and subject to all sorts of junk. When a Siddha lifts some of the junk, and the people feel better, they sometimes, just sometimes, start asking themselves "is there something more I should know?". Then begins the search for Truth.

Give us poor slobs a break, eh?

:-))

 
At 1/07/2008 1:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Give us poor slobs a break, eh?

-well said vicky...

 
At 1/07/2008 1:56 PM, Blogger jody said...

why is it so hard to believe that he had siddhis and "performed" miracles?

1. Because outside of some standard "weird shit" that's happened to me, I have not personally experienced anything close to these elaborate fantasy situations.

2. Because nothing of this order has ever been scientifically demonstrated.

3. Because I choose to live in the real world, not the one constructed by folks' belief in fairy-tales.

Truth, as you seem to have it isolated it in your world, apparently includes no physical body that will distract one until they scream with pain.

Your isolation of what I've come to find as "Truth" is wholly incorrect.

Truth includes all the suffering and pain you mention. So-called miracles are placebo alleviations for some suffering, but only at the expense of simple common sense and an understanding of the world as it is, not as some fervently wish it to be.

Give us poor slobs a break, eh?

Not if you insist on making up your world to suit your mythologically-infected ideologies.

 
At 1/07/2008 2:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"There are many such Siddhas in India. Does it make them enlightened? No. Are some of them enlightened? Probably."<<

Good to remember this!! very important and what got so many of into trouble..."siddha or siddhi" does NOT equal "enlightenment".
What's the biggie, guys? If you've seen these things and experienced them (mostly in India..the "land of enchantment"..lol) and then listen to people pontificating about how these things "don't exist", well...ok, if you think not..fine..

"So-called miracles are placebo alleviations for some suffering, but only at the expense of simple common sense and an understanding of the world as it is"

not necessarily. Some of us might see 'the world' as a 'miracle'. Think about it...your parents had sex at that particular time...day,minute, hour,second...a specific sperm united with an egg that just happened to drop that day...and: here you are! Whoah! Jody, do you truly "understand the world as it is?" does anybody?
Here's the thing...the human mind finds it very difficult to embrace the kind of paradox that life seems to be...the clarity and the mystery. back and forth on the pendulum. It seems to me that a balance point can arise where we are able to accept the paradox..and that's a kind of maturity. IMHO anyway.

 
At 1/07/2008 4:15 PM, Blogger jody said...

I can see a hiranyakasipu lurking inside you

Ahhh... demonize your opponent. I can see you are a true proponent of useless, tired and old Hindu mythology and its abortion of a manifestation, the Hinduvta movement.

 
At 1/07/2008 9:20 PM, Blogger gregory said...

science doesn't tell us about reality, science tells us about what the mind can know about reality

we are beginning to see many scientists discussing the limits, and the belief-based nature, of science

also, i don't think it is stretching it to say that all reality constructs are types of fairy tales

there are amazing experiences to be had that are not explainable, in fact, one of the great things about higher wisdom or enlightenment is living in the mystery of "not knowing", at all times

esp? intuition? love? science has no explanation for these realities of our everyday lives

let alone consciousness, what it is, how it works.... in fact scientists want to say it is all meat-based

i don't think so

in fact, we are still in neanderthal times regarding science, compared to what will be known tomorrow, and the next day, and the next

there is a lot of current research in the area of neurophysiology (much having to do with the neurophysiology of sales decisions!! funded by....) and i read some of the conclusions, the mini-discoveries made by six-figure scientists at universities, and i often can see where some yogi or rishi said the same thing a thousand years ago,. for free

the western arrogances that show up around rationality and scientific reasoning can often blind one to what is real, is one of my points...

this topic is one of great interest to me, so anyone wishing to continue, please do

to one of the anons, the latter

 
At 1/07/2008 9:44 PM, Blogger jody said...

esp? intuition? love? science has no explanation for these realities of our everyday lives

Love can explained as a state of mind, a response to certain conditions, biologically programmed.

The other stuff is just weird shit. As a former parapsychology student, I can say unequivocally that weird shit happens. However, who's to say that it's not just an amazing coincidence, and that such is just one of the natural occurrences of life? Associating weird shit with God and higher consciousness, while still – sadly enough – all the rage, does more to prevent folks from recognizing their own inner truth than help bring them to it, imo.

 
At 1/08/2008 8:53 AM, Anonymous Betty said...

Jody said... recognizing their own inner truth...

Like any other kid raised as a fundementalist I was taught that if I did not or could not believe, ie keep a firm grip on the content of my mind and never allow thoughts to come in that were contrary to my programming, I was lost to God. My only hope was to walk the narrow hallways of the bible. Meditation taught me that noone can control thoughts and that every thing is just an idea. We know nothing. St John of the Cross, I believe said, "Perfect faith is a wave of darkness." That is how I try to live now. To me, God is everything I do not know. If I have to believe or not believe in anything to be "saved", then I choose to be lost.

 
At 1/08/2008 8:55 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>"Love can explained as a state of mind, a response to certain conditions, biologically programmed"<<<

ERK! Aren't you the guy who is always complaining about his "love life"...lololol! too funny, Jody. No wonder!

get real

 
At 1/08/2008 10:40 AM, Blogger jody said...

Aren't you the guy who is always complaining about his "love life"

I believe you mean to say,"makes fun of himself by appearing to be a bit pathetic in an attempt to entertain his readers." It's kind my version of Chuckji talking about his double-wide ass.

I will accept no less than a direct incarnation of Mother Kali as my partner, so I'm hunkered down for a long wait, perhaps one I will endure to my demise.

 
At 1/08/2008 10:18 PM, Blogger gregory said...

>>"Love can explained as a state of mind, a response to certain conditions, biologically programmed"<<<

what does this mean, biology.... love is meat?

ok, after the obvious joke, if we asume there is something called "life force" or the name of your choice that animates the meat, science doesn't have a clue about that...

ok swami?

 
At 1/08/2008 10:20 PM, Blogger gregory said...

and, hey, they are all mother kalis

and good luck

 
At 1/08/2008 10:29 PM, Blogger jody said...

they are all mother kalis

So true, Gregory. As is everything else.

 
At 1/08/2008 10:38 PM, Blogger jody said...

love is meat?

No, but it's only the meat that feels love. Brahman feels only Brahman, and since Mother loves all without object, there is no differentiation in Her love. In my opinion, all the love we feel is the love we make. It's just a matter of having a suitable object to project it upon, whether that be a partner, guru, god, goddess or even an object. Don't you know folks who are in love with their cars? I know I am.

 
At 1/08/2008 11:16 PM, Blogger gregory said...

No, but it's only the meat that feels love. Brahman feels only Brahman, and since Mother loves all without object, there is no differentiation in Her love. In my opinion, all the love we feel is the love we make. It's just a matter of having a suitable object to project it upon, whether that be a partner, guru, god, goddess or even an object.

this is nice, thanks

 
At 1/09/2008 7:22 AM, Blogger CHUCK said...

Jody said...No, but it's only the meat that feels love. Brahman feels only Brahman...

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's this here kind of talk that has led to folks thinkin you are unmarriable, Jody! Aint it the meat that is imaginin that "Brahman feels only Brahman"? My own meat has been fried long and hard in the lard of my Momma's kindness! My meat don't hardly know if it's comin or goin!

PS I appreciate the mention of my double wide ass!

 
At 1/09/2008 7:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jody:

you said "why is it so hard to believe that he had siddhis and "performed" miracles?

1. Because outside of some standard "weird shit" that's happened to me, I have not personally experienced anything close to these elaborate fantasy situations."

I accept that -- just like some tribal people in a remote jungle never saw a car or a TV, when somebody tells them about it, many of them, the more intelligent types, say "this guy is full of it" and dismiss the report as fantasy, not appealing or necessary to them.

So you are like that -- you never had a miracle happen to you, in the sense we were speaking -- the Shirdi Sai type miracle -- so you don't believe it's possible. That's pretty much ordinary.

Fact of the matter is, these things do happen to people, and they are not imagined at all. Some people do pump up their imaginations and make things up. I'm not that type, and my experience of healing "miracles" were real relief miracles to me. They didn't happen over time. They were instantaneous. Also true for some with me at the time. Hard to argue with facts, and for me, facts also include what actually happens to me, however "weird" or "impossible" you think it is.

 
At 1/09/2008 9:26 PM, Blogger gregory said...

there is a continuum between what we lump together as "miracles" and what we call "normal life", to the degree that they can often feel like the same thing, not opposites, or opposing concepts

and, it seems to me, the more that awareness is left unfettered by notions or concepts or even a witness noticing it all, the more miraculous, and normal, many things and happenings are seen to be

and i have another hypothesis, the more subtle one's awareness, the more one is "based" in the subtler "bodies", the further out in time one is living when compared to someone based in the food sheath... the point being, one man's miracle is another man's normal

we can see this is a grosser way by seeing how different people understand the cause and effect of their actions, what works and doesn't work through time, the iraq situation is what i am thinking of at the moment, who knew quamire, vs. who knew revenge or security

and science, seems still to be on the surface od cause and effect despite its investigation of finer levels of physical reality

thanks for your time, enjoy,

gregory

 

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